Hello. I'm trying to understand more in-depth how the stats on a given bow works. I've read and understand what's available on the wiki:
"Draw Strength = Load Time
Suitedness = Damage Modifier
Balance = To-Hit/Agility Modifier
Lower Draw strength improves balance and reduces round time, but decreases suitedness
Higher Draw strength reduces balance and increases round time, with an increase in suitedness"
I'm simply trying to put it into perspective for myself with numbers. I asked in-game and after a couple questions, the on-duty mentor pawned me off on the forums, saying I should ask here instead :P
So, here are my questions, at present:
- Which of these bows (14/7/6 (FOI/Bal/Suit) versus 9/9/9) would be better overall, and why?
- Then, out of the winner between those two, how would it stack up against a 13/6/12 (FOI/Bal/Suit) bow?
Thank you
VTUAL
ASHAMAN1
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 04:54 AM CDT
>>saying I should ask here instead
Can't blame em, this is a pretty broad question. Here's how the stats break down.
FOI - short version, bonus chance to stun
Balance - Effects accuracy and how the weapon uses agility to increase accuracy. Accuracy (also heavily influenced by ranks) can bonus damage up to 2x.
Suited - Effects the contribution of strength to damage.
As for which bow will be best, that can change based on your stats, and what you are shooting at, as well as what buffs you can bring to bear. On a character without an ability to enhance Bows, a higher balance bow is likely to perform better as it will increase your chance to hit.
On the other hand, if you're a barbarian (weapon prime generally have oodles of offense vs critters) or utilize a Bow skill bonus, the higher Suited bow is very likely to perform better. This of course assumes you're hitting consistently. If you cannot connect, neither FOI nor Suited will do much to aid you.
And a final comment on bows - Ammo MATTERS. Think of bows as a modifier, and the ammo as the primary damage source. A good bow makes good arrows great.
Hope that helps.
Samsaren
Can't blame em, this is a pretty broad question. Here's how the stats break down.
FOI - short version, bonus chance to stun
Balance - Effects accuracy and how the weapon uses agility to increase accuracy. Accuracy (also heavily influenced by ranks) can bonus damage up to 2x.
Suited - Effects the contribution of strength to damage.
As for which bow will be best, that can change based on your stats, and what you are shooting at, as well as what buffs you can bring to bear. On a character without an ability to enhance Bows, a higher balance bow is likely to perform better as it will increase your chance to hit.
On the other hand, if you're a barbarian (weapon prime generally have oodles of offense vs critters) or utilize a Bow skill bonus, the higher Suited bow is very likely to perform better. This of course assumes you're hitting consistently. If you cannot connect, neither FOI nor Suited will do much to aid you.
And a final comment on bows - Ammo MATTERS. Think of bows as a modifier, and the ammo as the primary damage source. A good bow makes good arrows great.
Hope that helps.
Samsaren
VTUAL
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 05:13 AM CDT
Good information. Thank you for your reply.
I will keep the arrow perspective in mind, to be sure! I hadn't thought of it like that at all. I will now though.
As far as the question of which is best, I meant "on paper", as it were. Meaning, without taking into account anyone's individual capabilities/bonuses. Essentially, eliminating that to gain a better understanding of the bow stats themselves.
I will keep the arrow perspective in mind, to be sure! I hadn't thought of it like that at all. I will now though.
As far as the question of which is best, I meant "on paper", as it were. Meaning, without taking into account anyone's individual capabilities/bonuses. Essentially, eliminating that to gain a better understanding of the bow stats themselves.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 05:24 AM CDT
>>As far as the question of which is best, I meant "on paper", as it were. Meaning, without taking into account anyone's individual capabilities/bonuses.
The point being, you really can't just do a handwave of "that ones better". Which I think, is the point you seem to be missing. it DOES come down to the individual, and the individuals setup and playstyle.
Samsaren
The point being, you really can't just do a handwave of "that ones better". Which I think, is the point you seem to be missing. it DOES come down to the individual, and the individuals setup and playstyle.
Samsaren
VTUAL
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 06:48 AM CDT
I was just speaking to the numbers. With pretty much everything associated with measurements, variations, characteristics and such, an 'on paper' estimation based solely on the specs given, is a pretty normal thing. You can absolutely say this one is better for this and this one is better for that, based on the numbers alone. Then, understanding that based on skill, preference, playstyle, etc., the mileage will vary; the specs being nothing more than a simple measurement to baseline the experiences with. More obvious damage (14/7/6) versus more balance (9/9/9)and such, I understand that. I wasn't asking for you to tell me which would "suit me" better, nor be "better overall". I was, and am, seeking only to understand it better. I absolutely understand the end result will be difference for each user, because of the variations in character abilities, stats and skills.
In essence, I am probably looking for a far more "dumbed-down" answer than what you have swirling around in your more experienced DR mind.
Regardless of what my skills are, or are not, one of those bows will do more damage than the other, one will be more balanced, etc. That's all I am looking for. For instance, the 14/7/6 one has more obvious damage on the forefront (not taking arrows, or anything other than those 3 specs into account, of course). I was curious how much difference there would be between the 14/6 and the 9/9. The Suitability is 3 points higher on the latter; I was wondering how much difference that extra 3 Suit would make, when combined with its 9 FOI - compared to the FOI+Suit of the other. I assume, perhaps naively, that the 9/9/9 bow is going to be more balanced than the other no matter what, because of the 2 extra Bal points.
In essence, I am probably looking for a far more "dumbed-down" answer than what you have swirling around in your more experienced DR mind.
Regardless of what my skills are, or are not, one of those bows will do more damage than the other, one will be more balanced, etc. That's all I am looking for. For instance, the 14/7/6 one has more obvious damage on the forefront (not taking arrows, or anything other than those 3 specs into account, of course). I was curious how much difference there would be between the 14/6 and the 9/9. The Suitability is 3 points higher on the latter; I was wondering how much difference that extra 3 Suit would make, when combined with its 9 FOI - compared to the FOI+Suit of the other. I assume, perhaps naively, that the 9/9/9 bow is going to be more balanced than the other no matter what, because of the 2 extra Bal points.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 07:32 AM CDT
>>I was just speaking to the numbers.
Again, you CANNOT handwave a 'this is moar betta' at something as complicated as DR's combat.
I'll try again. Speaking for MYSELF, I can have great, or very poor performance from the same bow all depending on how I use it. For my 'day-to-day', a higher balance bow will perform HEAPS better in terms of damage because I'm NOT using a ranged-buff (paladins don't have one), and I'm shooting at something very challenging for my skill. As such, I utilize a very high balance bow to lean on my agility to actually connect, and deal damage. My high-suited comp bow deals almost no damage (or none) because I cannot hit with it.
Flip it around, when I'm doing dedicated Ranged training, I GREATLY prefer the high-suited slower bow because I utilize Debilitation, an Agility boost, Tactics, and more or less shove something to the ground, stand on its chest, and fire. In THAT circumstance, the high suited bow serves to bring LOADS more damage because I'm hitting the accuracy cap, and only benefit from more Suited for more damage.
So again, THE DETAILS MATTER.
Samsaren
Again, you CANNOT handwave a 'this is moar betta' at something as complicated as DR's combat.
I'll try again. Speaking for MYSELF, I can have great, or very poor performance from the same bow all depending on how I use it. For my 'day-to-day', a higher balance bow will perform HEAPS better in terms of damage because I'm NOT using a ranged-buff (paladins don't have one), and I'm shooting at something very challenging for my skill. As such, I utilize a very high balance bow to lean on my agility to actually connect, and deal damage. My high-suited comp bow deals almost no damage (or none) because I cannot hit with it.
Flip it around, when I'm doing dedicated Ranged training, I GREATLY prefer the high-suited slower bow because I utilize Debilitation, an Agility boost, Tactics, and more or less shove something to the ground, stand on its chest, and fire. In THAT circumstance, the high suited bow serves to bring LOADS more damage because I'm hitting the accuracy cap, and only benefit from more Suited for more damage.
So again, THE DETAILS MATTER.
Samsaren
SQUANTO
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 08:01 AM CDT
My best attempt to dumb this down. Bows and pretty much any weapon: if you have a hard time connecting, go with more balance. If you have no problem connecting, go with more suited/damage. Like Sammy said, ammo contributes greatly to the damage output of loadable weapons. It's probably a good idea to consider keeping two sets of weapons eventually for critter ladder progression. High balanced weapons for when you enter a new hunting ground and high suited weapons as you progress further toward that critter's cap.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
VTUAL
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 08:12 AM CDT
Before I even begin, if you do not want to speak further on the matter, simply don't reply. Other people reside here and I would moreso like to hear from them at this point.
Firstly, OF COURSE the "DETAILS" matter! Heck, life in-general is made-up of little else but what? Details!
Secondly, your [lame] attempt at lumping everything in my previous well-thought-out posts together as my attempting to find which "...is moar betta'", only degrades yourself and cheapens your further input to me.
Thirdly, thank you for everything you said between "combat." and "So ...".
Now, I'm not sure why you would think I don't think, or believe, details matter. I went into fairly excessive explanation (considering the simplicity of the matter at hand) telling you why, and that, I was interested in information that amounted to a baseline (of sorts) upon and with which to extrapolate my further experiences, information finds and the like.
What you're calling "complicated" seems very simple to me, so that part is perspective-determinate, as are a great many things, mind you.
All game mechanics operate on algorithms that determine everything based on variables, triggers, conditions, etc. Once you figure-out, or get a good idea of, a certain amount of it, you can demystify the entire thing and the seemingly-complicated becomes little more than a trivial thing. There's really very little to it and I've encountered many other games, of different types, that provide far more of a challenge in the way of combat. My previous statement, however, is neither here nor there, for the purpose at hand.
You seem strangely keen on not breaking anything down to look at it as smaller pieces and act as if such a thing cannot be done 'because it's so complicated'. You couldn't be anymore wrong, if that is indeed your view. If it's not well, then, good!
Taking away variables to investigate and learn about the basic foundation of the more "complicated" thing can be a very rewarding exercise. Once that's done, you simply begin adding variables until you have a complete and full picture of every possibility of the base plus any number, or mixture of, those variables. Then, what you have is a fully-realized picture of the nuances of the matter.
I look forward to hearing other people's input as it pertains to the original post as well.
Firstly, OF COURSE the "DETAILS" matter! Heck, life in-general is made-up of little else but what? Details!
Secondly, your [lame] attempt at lumping everything in my previous well-thought-out posts together as my attempting to find which "...is moar betta'", only degrades yourself and cheapens your further input to me.
Thirdly, thank you for everything you said between "combat." and "So ...".
Now, I'm not sure why you would think I don't think, or believe, details matter. I went into fairly excessive explanation (considering the simplicity of the matter at hand) telling you why, and that, I was interested in information that amounted to a baseline (of sorts) upon and with which to extrapolate my further experiences, information finds and the like.
What you're calling "complicated" seems very simple to me, so that part is perspective-determinate, as are a great many things, mind you.
All game mechanics operate on algorithms that determine everything based on variables, triggers, conditions, etc. Once you figure-out, or get a good idea of, a certain amount of it, you can demystify the entire thing and the seemingly-complicated becomes little more than a trivial thing. There's really very little to it and I've encountered many other games, of different types, that provide far more of a challenge in the way of combat. My previous statement, however, is neither here nor there, for the purpose at hand.
You seem strangely keen on not breaking anything down to look at it as smaller pieces and act as if such a thing cannot be done 'because it's so complicated'. You couldn't be anymore wrong, if that is indeed your view. If it's not well, then, good!
Taking away variables to investigate and learn about the basic foundation of the more "complicated" thing can be a very rewarding exercise. Once that's done, you simply begin adding variables until you have a complete and full picture of every possibility of the base plus any number, or mixture of, those variables. Then, what you have is a fully-realized picture of the nuances of the matter.
I look forward to hearing other people's input as it pertains to the original post as well.
VTUAL
Re: Understand Bows
03/16/2016 08:18 AM CDT
Thank you for your reply, Squanto.
As I looked more and more at bow stats, it was starting to look like having 2-3 sets, depending on how you wanted to play with it, could be idea. It's good to hear that you suggest 2 sets, and with good reason as well.
If you have anymore "much less dumbed-down" advice regarding the matter I'd love to hear that also.
As I looked more and more at bow stats, it was starting to look like having 2-3 sets, depending on how you wanted to play with it, could be idea. It's good to hear that you suggest 2 sets, and with good reason as well.
If you have anymore "much less dumbed-down" advice regarding the matter I'd love to hear that also.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Understand Bows ::NUDGE::
03/16/2016 09:32 AM CDT
Further bickering will result in your posts being removed.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
NINEVAH1
Re: Understand Bows ::NUDGE::
03/16/2016 10:47 AM CDT
Heh, they both said the same thing.
Anyways, as everyone else has said, there is no one bow that is better than others. If there was then everyone would be carrying that bow. Most people (myself included) carry a quicker loading/higher balance bow and a slower loading/higher suitedness bow for different situations. You could carry a single bow that is more balanced in stats, but most people find them underwhelming for every situation.
When it comes to ammo the same thing applies. Carry many different types of arrows so that you have a variety of choices to pick from depending on your target. You get the best results in DR combat when you match the weapon you use to make up for your weaknesses/take advantage of your strengths, and to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. There is no one weapon in any weapon skill that will do that in every situation.
Anyways, as everyone else has said, there is no one bow that is better than others. If there was then everyone would be carrying that bow. Most people (myself included) carry a quicker loading/higher balance bow and a slower loading/higher suitedness bow for different situations. You could carry a single bow that is more balanced in stats, but most people find them underwhelming for every situation.
When it comes to ammo the same thing applies. Carry many different types of arrows so that you have a variety of choices to pick from depending on your target. You get the best results in DR combat when you match the weapon you use to make up for your weaknesses/take advantage of your strengths, and to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. There is no one weapon in any weapon skill that will do that in every situation.
DEFOL
Re: Understand Bows
03/18/2016 12:45 PM CDT
<< You seem strangely keen on not breaking anything down to look at it as smaller pieces and act as if such a thing cannot be done 'because it's so complicated'
You have to understand that we literally know nothing about these systems, it's all variables. It's not like some World of Warcraft where you open up your combat log and see damage in numbers, know mob health and it's all static. All we know is RNG on top of RP messages. You can make assumptions and have gut feelings but that's all you're going to get. Just pray to god that gut feeling isn't fart.
You have to understand that we literally know nothing about these systems, it's all variables. It's not like some World of Warcraft where you open up your combat log and see damage in numbers, know mob health and it's all static. All we know is RNG on top of RP messages. You can make assumptions and have gut feelings but that's all you're going to get. Just pray to god that gut feeling isn't fart.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Understand Bows
03/23/2016 03:25 AM CDT
people know enough to train amd use thrown over anything you aim.
-Munch-
-Munch-
SPYRAUX
Re: Understand Bows
03/27/2016 10:41 AM CDT
<<Before I even begin, if you do not want to speak further on the matter, simply don't reply. Other people reside here and I would moreso like to hear from them at this point.>>
First of all, Squanto pretty much reiterated and confirmed much of the information Sam posted, yet was received with a completely different demeanor of response. So I'm not sure if your'e wanting information, or validation. That being said, I'll present some information, but much of this has already been stated.
<<As far as the question of which is best, I meant "on paper", as it were. Meaning, without taking into account anyone's individual capabilities/bonuses. Essentially, eliminating that to gain a better understanding of the bow stats themselves.>>
You did ask for a generalized idea of what is "moar betta." As Sam pointed out, this cannot always be generalized so easily as some paper, DPS stat to find out what is on top. Because what is more successful, completely changes with quite a few different, and constantly shifting variables. Your stats, your targets stats, type of defense, your buffs, your ranks, your bow, your arrows, your personal tolerance for RT, etc. Each one factoring into a slightly different calculation and combat style and preference. But each one being completely possible to be negated in degrees as well. One bow that is great for you, may be less than ideal for someone else.
For example, the bow I use, most people gawk at. I have been told that it's "not a real bow" or is a terrible choice because it's so slow for such negligible gains. But for me, this has been the most ideal choice, and I don't regret it one bit. Last year, before new bows, I preferred having the speed of a hirdu, over power. As my stats and options change(as well as targets), so have my preferences of what I considered "best." Ideal for the moment, is more how I like to view it.
<<All game mechanics operate on algorithms that determine everything based on variables, triggers, conditions, etc. Once you figure-out, or get a good idea of, a certain amount of it, you can demystify the entire thing and the seemingly-complicated becomes little more than a trivial thing.>>
True, but as I stated earlier, there are numerous variables, and they can completely change at a moments notice. Not to mention the fact that most of DR's numbers are masked or not stated. There is a lot more being calculated than we often have access to seeing. In the end, yes, there is probably some authentic, single overall power number. But what that is is constantly fluxuating. So yes, it is at least more complex than a simple DPS calc. Because DR is not your general, run-of-the-mill, HP based combat, where all you care about is beating HP to 0 as fast as possible.
That all being said, to answer your questions:
<<Which of these bows (14/7/6 (FOI/Bal/Suit) versus 9/9/9) would be better overall, and why?>>
The second. Because it is better in both balance and suitedness.
<<Then, out of the winner between those two, how would it stack up against a 13/6/12 (FOI/Bal/Suit) bow?>>
It stacks up as -4/+3/-3. Whether that is better, is completely dependent on what you feel is valuable for you.
~Van
First of all, Squanto pretty much reiterated and confirmed much of the information Sam posted, yet was received with a completely different demeanor of response. So I'm not sure if your'e wanting information, or validation. That being said, I'll present some information, but much of this has already been stated.
<<As far as the question of which is best, I meant "on paper", as it were. Meaning, without taking into account anyone's individual capabilities/bonuses. Essentially, eliminating that to gain a better understanding of the bow stats themselves.>>
You did ask for a generalized idea of what is "moar betta." As Sam pointed out, this cannot always be generalized so easily as some paper, DPS stat to find out what is on top. Because what is more successful, completely changes with quite a few different, and constantly shifting variables. Your stats, your targets stats, type of defense, your buffs, your ranks, your bow, your arrows, your personal tolerance for RT, etc. Each one factoring into a slightly different calculation and combat style and preference. But each one being completely possible to be negated in degrees as well. One bow that is great for you, may be less than ideal for someone else.
For example, the bow I use, most people gawk at. I have been told that it's "not a real bow" or is a terrible choice because it's so slow for such negligible gains. But for me, this has been the most ideal choice, and I don't regret it one bit. Last year, before new bows, I preferred having the speed of a hirdu, over power. As my stats and options change(as well as targets), so have my preferences of what I considered "best." Ideal for the moment, is more how I like to view it.
<<All game mechanics operate on algorithms that determine everything based on variables, triggers, conditions, etc. Once you figure-out, or get a good idea of, a certain amount of it, you can demystify the entire thing and the seemingly-complicated becomes little more than a trivial thing.>>
True, but as I stated earlier, there are numerous variables, and they can completely change at a moments notice. Not to mention the fact that most of DR's numbers are masked or not stated. There is a lot more being calculated than we often have access to seeing. In the end, yes, there is probably some authentic, single overall power number. But what that is is constantly fluxuating. So yes, it is at least more complex than a simple DPS calc. Because DR is not your general, run-of-the-mill, HP based combat, where all you care about is beating HP to 0 as fast as possible.
That all being said, to answer your questions:
<<Which of these bows (14/7/6 (FOI/Bal/Suit) versus 9/9/9) would be better overall, and why?>>
The second. Because it is better in both balance and suitedness.
<<Then, out of the winner between those two, how would it stack up against a 13/6/12 (FOI/Bal/Suit) bow?>>
It stacks up as -4/+3/-3. Whether that is better, is completely dependent on what you feel is valuable for you.
~Van
