190 in bows, and 222 missiles, 55 agility;
In fledgling gryphons I can't hit them, at all, with a capped hunters shortbow at full aim (at all; I haven't landed a single shot), but I'm still training Bows and Missile quite well. From a training perspective, I'm kind of alright with this (no lodged arrows!), but it's a pretty significant reduction to the amount of kills I'm working with.

Why is the miss probability at level 33%? That seems crazy high relative to other weapons.

It doesn't seem equitable given that it takes so much longer to get a bow/crossbow shot off.

<<Even better you can snap shot bows (something other weapons do not have).>>

In theory. In practice, at level, snap shots don't make contact... pretty much ever. Did plat get rolled over to the new damage tweaks for bows? Maybe I'm just basing all of this on something incomplete.

Ah, ok. Actually makes me feel better, since I have high hopes for the damage modifier and aiming making using a bow a better experience. I'll stop complaining. Any chance you can post a quick blurb on the plat boards once the changes go in?

ok I did took two approaches:

Hunting resuscitants(which I can dodge fine with 2 on me w/0 a second defense) with buffs up, usually.

1.) Uses a shield, take the offensive penalty and learn a little shield in the process. You'll miss more, hit less hard, and take longer to kill, but you should be pretty safe, even in a swarm, as long as you don't get in over you head. Took awhile to learn exp though.

or

2.) No shield, Hangback(no retreat penalty), the RT spam is a bit annoying but you can be fast or set something up, but it worked really really well, I was able to do 1-2 hit kills like before and it trained a lot quicker(harder shots=more exp), it was more dangerous, and I had to retreat or kill them off if I got swarmed, but for the most part I was able to dodge one at melee, and hangback from 2 at at time. Retreat if you have to, and circle or something to kill the time before the penalty drops.

Bonus tips:

- Circle or Weave before you shoot, shove works too.

- For War Mages, cast ROS at pole, hangback, retreat to missle, any that try to advanced or get to pole just get eaten up while you're safely aiming.

Personally I don't mind the danger for exp trade-off, brings back the danger I miss from over hunting all the time.
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An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

If spells like vivisection can 1-2 shot stuff, why can't a bow with enough skill?

>>why can't a bow with enough skill?

Because 1-2 hit kills should be near-impossible to get on at-circle stuff. That is a design rule for 3.0.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

oh yeah, I usually have blessed weapons for them too

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An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

Interesting. I wonder if the combation from bless + buffs + full aim pushes you into the overkill mechanic.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>I'm not, Divult is over in plat. If its not intentional, then I'm sure it'l be tweaked.

Some clarification on that, I am getting 3-4 hits to kill w/ 50 mana VIVI plus 40 mana Heighten Pain on Stormbulls with 685 TM skill. Over the last few days the results I get with VIVI are highly variable, 3-4 one day, 15+ the next, back to 3-4. I simply cant explain the randomness there. I may be a bit on the higher end in the TM vs Defense range there, so I am not exactly sure you can call that an at level contest.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

>When I last saw you chat, you mentioned 1-2. To clarify, I don't have an issue with vivisection, I just think bows should have a shot at 1-2 killing with enough skill.

Not really worried about VIVI tweaks at this stage, 3.0 is still young and things are bound to be balanced back and forth a bit. I do think I got my targets mixed up with the report on the 1-2 casts, its likely I hit something my construct was fighting to get the really low cast kills. Im still working out my TM scripts and using the new TARGET SPELL AT CRITTER seems to target the first and not the faced target. Today Im hovering at 3-4 still, so it seems to be rather stable for my skill and mana usage.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

>So yeah, I'm thinking the exp from misses could be too high. How long to mind lock for you?

Sorry for the delayed reply;
It takes about 20m to lock? Ballpark, maybe I'm being a bit generous and it's closer to the 25-30 range?

If I'm missing, what bow is going to train better, a fast loading shortbow or a slower loading composite? I'm glad that shooting but missing still trains.

And incidentally, the appraisal that I believe you pulled from my character was on my barbarian; I'm actually referring to my Necromancer, who has ~200 ranks of Bows, 50 something agility, and is still missing Gryphons. I understand that this is below gryphons and after 3.0 just means I don't have the skill to hit them, that's fine, but I went from being able to kill them with any bow in 4-5 shots to missing entirely, so just felt it deserved some looking at.

yes the sword was blessed. and sure.. they all look the same though mostly... it's probably the bless... i'll post if i find another 2 hit bow or 2he

IIRC undead's harder to hurt unless you have a bless, then a bless basical knocks it to normal then it goes it's bonus(zombies and ghosts). Unless they're just 'evil' (or more evil than undead) then the bless is a crazy bonus(genis, and i think there's a necro spell that causes bless to flare too).

* Rooms:

[Catacombs, Labyrinth]
A myriad of decayed cadavers lie in hastily constructed alcoves along both sides of the passage. Twisting and turning, these halls of the dead quickly disorient and confuse. Small pools of water, putrid with rot, fill the depressions in the uneven floor, and the odor of decay is overpowering. An occasional alcove sits empty, giving one cause to wonder where the previous occupant now lies.
Obvious exits: north, east, southwest.

> e
You wander east.

[Catacombs, Labyrinth]
A seemingly endless line of corpses runs down the length of this burial hallway. Propped up against the rough stone walls they stand as silent sentinels to the ages. The large empty eye sockets of almost countless skulls stare vacuously into the deep gloom.
You also see a thick iron gate and a displaced corpse.
Obvious exits: north, west.

> app res
You are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is healthy.
You are certain that it is not quite as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is about as disciplined as you are.
You are certain that it is about as quick to react as you are.
You are certain that it is about as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade, you are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is definitely less skilled.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade, you are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is a somewhat skilled opponent.
If you attacked with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade you are certain that the enemy would train very well, provided you can land a blow.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well.

I didn't have a bless going in but

**LOG
here's a 3 hit kill with no bless (i can do them pretty often):

You stop a Misenseor resuscitant from advancing any farther.
> circ

> circ

You slowly circle around a Misenseor resuscitant.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and in very strong position.]
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
* Ineptly, a Misenseor resuscitant swings at you. You counter some of the fist with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade.
[You're tired, nimbly balanced and in superior position.]
R> swing
>
The branded lines of fire on a Misenseor resuscitant burn with a faint red color!
< Moving in gracefully, you swing a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant badly fails to parry with its decaying forearm.
The greatsword lands an extremely heavy hit that smacks it solidly in the left hand.
[You're tired, nimbly balanced and in superior position.]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]
R> chop
...wait 1 seconds.
R>
* Moving poorly, a Misenseor resuscitant slashes its clawlike hands at you. You evade, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and in excellent position.]
> chop

The branded lines of fire on a Misenseor resuscitant burn with a faint red color!
< Driving in with naturally fluid movements, you chop a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant badly fails to parry with its decaying forearm.
The greatsword lands a spine-rattling strike that rips away half of the resuscitant hip as its left femur is pulled from its socket.
The a Misenseor resuscitant emits a hoarse shriek as it topples to the ground, limbs twtching wildly.
[You're tired, nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 5 sec.]

R> app res quick
...wait 1 seconds.
R> app res quick

>
With an excited shriek, a Misenseor resuscitant leaps to its feet.

>
You are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is in very bad shape.
You are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is slightly fatigued.
The Misenseor resuscitant has a major wound.
You wonder if it is not quite as strong as you are.
You believe that it is somewhat less agile than you are.
You're not sure how disciplined it is.
You estimate that it is about as quick to react as you are.
You wonder if it is not quite as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade, you are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is a slightly less skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade, you are certain that the Misenseor resuscitant is well beneath your abilities.
If you attacked with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade you are certain that the enemy would train very well, provided you can land a blow.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well.

[Roundtime: 3 seconds]
R>
* Apparently without direction or thought, a Misenseor resuscitant slashes its clawlike hands at you. You knock aside most of the claw with a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade.
[You're tired, nimbly balanced and overwhelming your opponent.]
R> slice

The branded lines of fire on a Misenseor resuscitant burn with a faint red color!
< Moving like a striking snake, you slice a tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade at a Misenseor resuscitant. A Misenseor resuscitant badly fails to parry with its decaying forearm.
The greatsword lands a massive strike that cleaves the resuscitant torso from shoulder to hip to expose rotting organs.
The Misenseor resuscitant shrieks hoarsely and begins to shudder violently, its cries growing gradually softer as its unholy life force fades away.
The fiery marks branding a Misenseor resuscitant slowly fade away.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]


*STATS
(not wearing a small shield)
Twohanded Edged: 454 86% examining (13/34)
Strength : 75 Reflex : 65 +
Agility : 85 +
Melee Mastery: 381 67.98% examining (13/34)

**Spells
You sense the Mantle of Flame spell upon you, which will last for about eighty-one roisaen.
You sense the Swirling Winds spell upon you, which will last for about fifteen roisaen.
You sense the Manifest Force spell surrounding you, which will last for sixteen roisaen or until it has endured one more blow.
You sense the Y'ntrel Sechra spell helping you maneuver in chain armor, which should last for about fourteen roisaen.
You sense the Ignite spell upon you, which will last for about five roisaen.
You sense the Sure Footing spell upon you, which will last for about fifteen roisaen.
You sense the Substratum spell upon you, which will last for about seventeen roisaen.
You sense the Ring of Spears spell upon you, which will last until you fail to provide 18 mana for it.
You sense the Ease Burden spell upon you, which will last for about seventeen roisaen.


**WEAPON
A tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade is a two-handed edged pole-ranged weapon.
A tyrium greatsword with a balanced blade trains the two-handed edged skill.

You are certain that it could do:
somewhat fair (4/26) puncture damage
very devastating (22/26) slice damage
very extreme (16/26) impact damage
somewhat moderate fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage

The greatsword is soundly designed for improving the force of your attacks.

You are certain that the greatsword is dismally (2/14) balanced and is superbly (11/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the greatsword is nearly impervious to damage (17/18), and is practically in mint condition (90-97%).

The greatsword is made with metal.
You are certain that the greatsword weighs exactly 119 stones.
You are certain that the greatsword is worth exactly 2770531 kronars.
You sense a deep connection with the greatsword, as if it will be with you always.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

Yeah, them and souls for combat exclusively pretty much for almost a year?

Their parry is crazy, in 2.0 I usually couldn't hit them with my sword without ANC or putting an arrow or CL through it first. I'd kill them with 1-3 hits from my bow or 5-12+ from my sword.

Now, it's much easier, but I'm not sure how much the boosts help.

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.