Kodius or anyone else able to give some more information on how ranged will work in 3.0? It has been said that it will be more viable to utilize ranged at melee, taking the retreat changes into consideration.
My guess is that we will be able to utilize all 3 defense types simultaneously more to their full capacity - like upping the base points available to use to 270 instead of the 180 currently. This would make sense considering it's been stated that it won't be beneficial to dance with more than 2 critters at a time.
If the above isn't happening, can you shed some light on how it will be possible to train ranged? I know about the piece being added to keep mobs at > melee range while advancing with more frequent stuns...but in swarmy hunting grounds it seems like it would be near impossible to train.
Another thing I'd like to see, would be....If you are attacked while holding a loaded ranged weapon, your primary focus is still on defending. Rather than just taking a big penalty to defense, and trying keep the weapon loaded and/or aimed, you would drop the ammo automatically as a natural reflex. If your skill is high enough vs. the opponent's attack you could maintain the aim and loaded ammo. This would be a bit of a fail safe against "getting caught with your bow out" but it would still give the ranged user a penalty/disruption.
Railz
ANDY-MCKEAN
RAIST
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/12/2012 06:56 PM CDT
>My guess is that we will be able to utilize all 3 defense types simultaneously more to their full capacity - like upping the base points available to use to 270 instead of the 180 currently. This would make sense considering it's been stated that it won't be beneficial to dance with more than 2 critters at a time.
No. How it was last described was this:
If the game attempts to contest a defense that you have put stance points into but cannot be done for some reason (shield points but wearing no shield, parry vs. ranged, etc.) it will make a second (or third) evasion check using the original skill at a penalty (60% effectiveness was given as an example, I have no idea if that's the actual number).
For example, you have a bow out, wearing no shield, but stance points in shield. Someone fires at you, it checks your evasion as it would normally, and if that isn't sufficient, it will make another evasion check using your shield skill at some undetermined penalty. If you had points in parry, it would then check parry using penalize parry skill.
So, while it will be less effective than actually using a second defense, it is possible to survive using nothing but evasion... for a while.
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Combat Balance List:
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No. How it was last described was this:
If the game attempts to contest a defense that you have put stance points into but cannot be done for some reason (shield points but wearing no shield, parry vs. ranged, etc.) it will make a second (or third) evasion check using the original skill at a penalty (60% effectiveness was given as an example, I have no idea if that's the actual number).
For example, you have a bow out, wearing no shield, but stance points in shield. Someone fires at you, it checks your evasion as it would normally, and if that isn't sufficient, it will make another evasion check using your shield skill at some undetermined penalty. If you had points in parry, it would then check parry using penalize parry skill.
So, while it will be less effective than actually using a second defense, it is possible to survive using nothing but evasion... for a while.
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Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
PEICHAR
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/15/2012 05:19 PM CDT
I'm looking forward to any improvement on defenses for stickbows. It's tiring to aim;ret;ret;fire;ret;ret;load.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
LHALLFIN
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 08:21 PM CDT
>If the game attempts to contest a defense that you have put stance points into but cannot be done for some reason (shield points but wearing no shield, parry vs. ranged, etc.) it will make a second (or third) evasion check using the original skill at a penalty
I'm failing to see how this would actually work. I'm probably just not understanding some key fundamental to this or other upcoming changes.
If Joe thief has 1000 evasion and 700 shield (primary vs tert growth rates ftw) and 1000 evasion already isn't enough on its own, what good is a second or third roll at anything less going to help?
Not to mention this still wouldn't make a character able to not still depend on another defense, because you'd have to drop the bow to train shield up to get anything out of this at all or the second and third roll would be sixty percent of zero?
I want a world where you could train one defense and a stick bow and be able to hunt at level. Not saying I would ever do that, or that anyone should but I still can't help but feel that should still be viable.
Anyway you slice it, I have no idea how stickbow users do it now. In almost every 500+ situation you'd be very dead without a shield to block arrows or spells, but take what I say with a grain of salt, I really don't have much experience with bows at all.
Just sounds like there'd have to be more to it than a second or third roll. Curious to hear more, getting anxious to see this "document" Soch mentioned.
: )
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 08:28 PM CDT
>I'm failing to see how this would actually work. I'm probably just not understanding some key fundamental to this or other upcoming changes.
Even in the 3.0 world, I was under the impression that defenses would add.
So to retool your example, 100 evasion/shield/parry, stanced 100 evasion, 80 parry, he would get effectively 100 ranks of evasion combined with 80 (reduced by a penalty) ranks of 'second defense' in the form of evasion. So I doubt it'll add to straight up 180 evasion, but, 150 effective?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Even in the 3.0 world, I was under the impression that defenses would add.
So to retool your example, 100 evasion/shield/parry, stanced 100 evasion, 80 parry, he would get effectively 100 ranks of evasion combined with 80 (reduced by a penalty) ranks of 'second defense' in the form of evasion. So I doubt it'll add to straight up 180 evasion, but, 150 effective?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
RAIST
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 09:21 PM CDT
>>I'm failing to see how this would actually work. I'm probably just not understanding some key fundamental to this or other upcoming changes.
Sorry, I assumed a broader understanding of things than I probably should.
See, what happens currently is the game creates Offensive Factor rating based on the attacker. Each time it cycles through a defense, this number is decreased by the result of the defensive contest. Problem is that evasion decreases it the most, even given exactly the same results, thus resulting in evasion being far more important.
In 3.0, this is changing... somehow. But the result will be that all defenses are equally weighted in the defensive calcs.
Made up example for illustration, as I have no idea how the actual mechanics work in 3.0. Lets say 100 attack points get generated. First run through evasion knocks off 60. Normally, a hit, if you had no other defenses. Now, your pseduo-evasion derived from shield skill kicks in, reducing it another say... 45 points. Total defensive score is 105 so it misses.
It isn't a pass/fail system, so even if a defense fails to completely defend you, it does give some benefit.
Again I want to stress that this is a completely made up example to illustrate the additive nature of defenses, not that I have any idea how the underlying mechanics of 3.0 work.
Weapons for Sale:
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Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Sorry, I assumed a broader understanding of things than I probably should.
See, what happens currently is the game creates Offensive Factor rating based on the attacker. Each time it cycles through a defense, this number is decreased by the result of the defensive contest. Problem is that evasion decreases it the most, even given exactly the same results, thus resulting in evasion being far more important.
In 3.0, this is changing... somehow. But the result will be that all defenses are equally weighted in the defensive calcs.
Made up example for illustration, as I have no idea how the actual mechanics work in 3.0. Lets say 100 attack points get generated. First run through evasion knocks off 60. Normally, a hit, if you had no other defenses. Now, your pseduo-evasion derived from shield skill kicks in, reducing it another say... 45 points. Total defensive score is 105 so it misses.
It isn't a pass/fail system, so even if a defense fails to completely defend you, it does give some benefit.
Again I want to stress that this is a completely made up example to illustrate the additive nature of defenses, not that I have any idea how the underlying mechanics of 3.0 work.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
LHALLFIN
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 09:50 PM CDT
Ah, thanks, I think I just needed a kick in the head that its being added to the roll... rather than somehow the evasion roll being completely resolved and it being its own second roll.
Still, its a lot of stuff that I've never even wanted to know and even understanding part of that is already way too much.
And even more still, I hope it works, but I stand by my statement of people shouldn't need shield ranks to defend with a bow without a shield.
RAIST
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 09:52 PM CDT
>And even more still, I hope it works, but I stand by my statement of people shouldn't need shield ranks to defend with a bow without a shield.
I disagree. That's the disadvantage to counteract the advantages bows have, speed and damage.
Speed, defense, damage, pick two:
Speed, Defense: Throwing
Speed, Damage: Bows
Defense, Damage: Crossbow
It seems balanced pretty well to me (in theory).
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
I disagree. That's the disadvantage to counteract the advantages bows have, speed and damage.
Speed, defense, damage, pick two:
Speed, Defense: Throwing
Speed, Damage: Bows
Defense, Damage: Crossbow
It seems balanced pretty well to me (in theory).
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 09:53 PM CDT
>And even more still, I hope it works, but I stand by my statement of people shouldn't need shield ranks to defend with a bow without a shield.
...ok?
You have 0 shield. You're still getting your full evasion bonus.
You're not, however, getting a bonus from skills (parry, shield) you haven't trained. It's not fair to people who do train the other skills, and are getting a purely skill based secondary bonus to evasion in a severely limited situation, that people who opt not to train the skills do as well as they do.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
...ok?
You have 0 shield. You're still getting your full evasion bonus.
You're not, however, getting a bonus from skills (parry, shield) you haven't trained. It's not fair to people who do train the other skills, and are getting a purely skill based secondary bonus to evasion in a severely limited situation, that people who opt not to train the skills do as well as they do.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
LHALLFIN
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/16/2012 10:51 PM CDT
Fair is a line that separates at least two areas.
Yes, I agree that it isn't fair for someone to have 0 shield and get a bonus to evasion.
But I also think that is sounds unfair for someone to have 500 shield and get a X% bonus to evasion... when they aren't wearing a shield.
This isn't about training "well" or being min/max or optimal.
Fair would be being able to train any single defense by itself from 0 to 1750, works perfect with shield. Works fine with parry, until you hit something that has a ranged attack, but you could do it.
I just don't think that's possible with evasion and since that's the only option with a bow... I guess I just don't fundamentally agree with the idea, that coupled with the statement that "evasion will no longer be king". Doesn't really have me worried per say but I dunno, sum it all up and I guess I've got another couple years of tert shield training to look forward too even tho my evasion should be enough on its own.
As far as:
Speed, defense, damage, pick two:
Speed, Defense: Throwing
Speed, Damage: Bows
Defense, Damage: Crossbow
That's great, until you also include magic and LT/HT in the comparison, then it becomes pretty meaningless in my humble opinion.
Oh well... guys don't worry, I know I'm just a crazy person that makes no sense... Its OK really. I'm fine with it.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 07:17 AM CDT
>That's great, until you also include magic and LT/HT in the comparison, then it becomes pretty meaningless in my humble opinion.
He did. And magic is simply a variable between damage/speed. It is fueled by a finite source as opposed to infinite throwing weapons/ammo/etc which you can spam as fast as possible.
Each weapon has drawbacks, including magic. Magic just has a different set.
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He did. And magic is simply a variable between damage/speed. It is fueled by a finite source as opposed to infinite throwing weapons/ammo/etc which you can spam as fast as possible.
Each weapon has drawbacks, including magic. Magic just has a different set.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
VEE-REX
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 12:33 PM CDT
>>I just don't think that's possible with evasion and since that's the only option with a bow
>>Anyway you slice it, I have no idea how stickbow users do it now.
Just to answer your question, stickbow users use the ultimate (even if not untouchable) defense. Stealth.
Stealth is a great defense because it allows the stickbow user to use their bow without having to worry too much about getting their evasion-only defense attacked (with the exception of AoE or losing the hiding vs. perception contest). Stealth is a great offense because it allows the stickbow user to get partial to full aim without being attacked (with the exception of AoE or losing the hiding vs. perception contest).
While stealth is really being changed, there are going to be changes to stick bow that will try to balance it so that it's not the all-powerful nuke firing weapon it is today. While at the same time with all the changes to health and defenses I don't think anyone using evasion only should have a major problem defending, unless of course their evasion isn't up to par. But generally someone trying to use only evasion will be survival primary anyway.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>Anyway you slice it, I have no idea how stickbow users do it now.
Just to answer your question, stickbow users use the ultimate (even if not untouchable) defense. Stealth.
Stealth is a great defense because it allows the stickbow user to use their bow without having to worry too much about getting their evasion-only defense attacked (with the exception of AoE or losing the hiding vs. perception contest). Stealth is a great offense because it allows the stickbow user to get partial to full aim without being attacked (with the exception of AoE or losing the hiding vs. perception contest).
While stealth is really being changed, there are going to be changes to stick bow that will try to balance it so that it's not the all-powerful nuke firing weapon it is today. While at the same time with all the changes to health and defenses I don't think anyone using evasion only should have a major problem defending, unless of course their evasion isn't up to par. But generally someone trying to use only evasion will be survival primary anyway.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
GORTEOUS
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 01:57 PM CDT
>> He did. And magic is simply a variable between damage/speed. It is fueled by a finite source as opposed to infinite throwing weapons/ammo/etc which you can spam as fast as possible.
It's not really damage. No one picks bow for damage.
People choose them because you can hit far more difficult targets with drastically less ranks - there's really no weapon that comes close to the amount of absurd bonuses that bow currently enjoys - pair it up with Hiding and you've got the ultimate defense/offense combination - complete immunity from 90% of attacks with a fight-ending trump card available at any time.
If you wanna look at it strictly in terms of damage in a 'guaranteed-hit' comparison, throwing blades are generally better with less risk - the chance of getting in a stun or a shot that cripples a hider is pretty high. They get pretty devastating with high Strength and benefit much more than other weapons from it - a non-factor altogether for bow users(bow ALWAYS hits hard).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
It's not really damage. No one picks bow for damage.
People choose them because you can hit far more difficult targets with drastically less ranks - there's really no weapon that comes close to the amount of absurd bonuses that bow currently enjoys - pair it up with Hiding and you've got the ultimate defense/offense combination - complete immunity from 90% of attacks with a fight-ending trump card available at any time.
If you wanna look at it strictly in terms of damage in a 'guaranteed-hit' comparison, throwing blades are generally better with less risk - the chance of getting in a stun or a shot that cripples a hider is pretty high. They get pretty devastating with high Strength and benefit much more than other weapons from it - a non-factor altogether for bow users(bow ALWAYS hits hard).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 03:23 PM CDT
>It's not really damage. No one picks bow for damage.
I'm sorry, but what? I know the rest of your post qualified it, but still, what?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
I'm sorry, but what? I know the rest of your post qualified it, but still, what?
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
GORTEOUS
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 03:59 PM CDT
>> I'm sorry, but what? I know the rest of your post qualified it, but still, what?
People don't pick bow for damage, they pick it because you get much more bang with far less ranks. The way damage mechanics work in DR are way out of proportion with how they're supposed to work - once you pass a certain point, you start hitting things much harder than what should be allowed and the goal of combat becomes less about 'hitting hard' and more about 'hitting'.
Basically, if you took out the massive to-hit bonuses that bows current enjoy - bow would become a pre-emptive or auxiliary form of attacking. Damage isn't worth a damn if you can't hit anything. This statement is much more true than if you reversed it, and put the damage in line with other forms of attacking but kept the stacking to-hit bonus - it would still be ridiculous.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
People don't pick bow for damage, they pick it because you get much more bang with far less ranks. The way damage mechanics work in DR are way out of proportion with how they're supposed to work - once you pass a certain point, you start hitting things much harder than what should be allowed and the goal of combat becomes less about 'hitting hard' and more about 'hitting'.
Basically, if you took out the massive to-hit bonuses that bows current enjoy - bow would become a pre-emptive or auxiliary form of attacking. Damage isn't worth a damn if you can't hit anything. This statement is much more true than if you reversed it, and put the damage in line with other forms of attacking but kept the stacking to-hit bonus - it would still be ridiculous.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 09:41 PM CDT
Eh part of the damage you see and to-hit are lumped into one, IE if you hit more accurately you up your damage. (3.0 is changing this)
I think you guys are saying the same thing heh. I think ONE of the reasons people pick bows is because they deal out more damage (because of the to-hit bonus, aim bonus, poach bonus etc) There are plenty of other reasons as well!
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
I think you guys are saying the same thing heh. I think ONE of the reasons people pick bows is because they deal out more damage (because of the to-hit bonus, aim bonus, poach bonus etc) There are plenty of other reasons as well!
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 10:53 PM CDT
> I think ONE of the reasons people pick bows is because they deal out more damage (because of the to-hit bonus, aim bonus, poach bonus etc) There are plenty of other reasons as well!
This was part of my confusion, since he seems to be discussing accuracy vs. power, and in DR 2.0 accuracy is power as far as the math goes. I can see what he means by after a threshold blades being better, it just...boggles my mind that someone would say 'people don't take bows for damage' in current DR.
DR 3.0? Sure, totally with you, I think, since I don't know how it's going to play out.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
This was part of my confusion, since he seems to be discussing accuracy vs. power, and in DR 2.0 accuracy is power as far as the math goes. I can see what he means by after a threshold blades being better, it just...boggles my mind that someone would say 'people don't take bows for damage' in current DR.
DR 3.0? Sure, totally with you, I think, since I don't know how it's going to play out.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
VEE-REX
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 10:58 PM CDT
>>>Anyway you slice it, I have no idea how stickbow users do it now.
Not to pick on this message, but here's some more information on bow. :D
Kodius mentioned that bow will be moved to the melee calcs in 3.0. I can only conclude that means it's on the ranged calcs right now. IIRC (and I could be wrong), the ranged calcs give a x3 agility modifier to your ranged skills. What this means is that your agility is working 3x as well for your bows as it is for your melee weapons. If the numbers work like I think they do, then it's like having 30 agility works like having 90 agility but only for bow. There are factors such as diminishing returns on stats, and combat irregularities that would make this untrue, but I think if all else is equal it would end up like that.
There was once a time when thrown weapons were at the x3 agility modifier, and that was when everyone was picking up logs HT'ing things to death. I used to forage vines and bread crumbs and it would be like throwing an axe at people. Then I believe it was Ssra who moved thrown weapons to the melee calcs and justifying that the actual function of bow is reason enough to allow it to stay at the ranged calcs. However, combat gets worse the higher you get and it's precisely the reason why someone with 600 bow is capable of one shotting another with nearly 1200 in both evasion and shield, not including the use of all possible available buffs.
I do believe that 3.0 combat will naturally make it easier to evasion-only defend when using bow, but I do agree that since bow is undergoing to big re-balancing changes that some things can be put into place to make defending with a loaded bow a lot more feasible.
The question I do have is... is TM also on the ranged calcs right now? Or does it have a x2 agility modifier? If so, will it also move to the melee calcs?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Not to pick on this message, but here's some more information on bow. :D
Kodius mentioned that bow will be moved to the melee calcs in 3.0. I can only conclude that means it's on the ranged calcs right now. IIRC (and I could be wrong), the ranged calcs give a x3 agility modifier to your ranged skills. What this means is that your agility is working 3x as well for your bows as it is for your melee weapons. If the numbers work like I think they do, then it's like having 30 agility works like having 90 agility but only for bow. There are factors such as diminishing returns on stats, and combat irregularities that would make this untrue, but I think if all else is equal it would end up like that.
There was once a time when thrown weapons were at the x3 agility modifier, and that was when everyone was picking up logs HT'ing things to death. I used to forage vines and bread crumbs and it would be like throwing an axe at people. Then I believe it was Ssra who moved thrown weapons to the melee calcs and justifying that the actual function of bow is reason enough to allow it to stay at the ranged calcs. However, combat gets worse the higher you get and it's precisely the reason why someone with 600 bow is capable of one shotting another with nearly 1200 in both evasion and shield, not including the use of all possible available buffs.
I do believe that 3.0 combat will naturally make it easier to evasion-only defend when using bow, but I do agree that since bow is undergoing to big re-balancing changes that some things can be put into place to make defending with a loaded bow a lot more feasible.
The question I do have is... is TM also on the ranged calcs right now? Or does it have a x2 agility modifier? If so, will it also move to the melee calcs?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
VEE-REX
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/17/2012 11:00 PM CDT
>>This was part of my confusion, since he seems to be discussing accuracy vs. power, and in DR 2.0 accuracy is power as far as the math goes.
I see this thrown around a lot, and in some ways (as Gorteous described) it's true. But accuracy and power cannot be used interchangeably; while more accuracy naturally increases damage, more damage does not increase accuracy.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I see this thrown around a lot, and in some ways (as Gorteous described) it's true. But accuracy and power cannot be used interchangeably; while more accuracy naturally increases damage, more damage does not increase accuracy.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Ranged in 3.0
10/18/2012 07:05 AM CDT
>>But accuracy and power cannot be used interchangeably; while more accuracy naturally increases damage, more damage does not increase accuracy.
Good clarification.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Good clarification.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
