A couple weeks ago Socharis mentioned that discipline was never unhooked from learning rates, at which point he told us it increases experience pool size. I was initially puzzled because I was around during the last exp change and there was extensive exp testing/charts on the forums. (I tried to pull them out but it was too long ago.) Discipline was ruled out as having ANY affect on learning rates.
Exp currently drains based on Wisdom + Size of the pool (plus other factors.) Intelligence directly increases the pool size and thus has an affect on drain rate. Discipline should do the same, but at a smaller rate because the pool size is much smaller (according to Socharis post.) However this is not the case. Either:
1) Discipline does not affect exp learning.
or
2) Discipline's benefit (+17 discipline) is so small that it is not currently measurable.
Testing:
100 intel
100 wisdom
60 discipline
Lunar Magic:
794 61.67
794 63.01 1.34 gain
794 64.34 1.33 gain
794 65.68 1.34 gain
100 intel, 100 wis, 77 discipline
794 66.72
794 68.06 1.34 gain
794 69.40 1.34 gain
794 70.74 1.34 gain
794 72.08 1.34 gain
794 73.41 1.33 gain
794 74.75 1.34 gain
DAENAR-DR
DURATHING
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 05:04 PM CST
Are those full pulses from mindlock, or just single pulses?
VOLCANUS
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 05:11 PM CST
He did post it was minor.
My guesses are:
1) 17 discipline doesn't have much of an affect when compared to 100 int/wis. Together, the disc is inpercievable with only 5 pulses.
2) There are diminishing returns based on the skill level, so 17 disc wouldn't have a visible effect with only 5 pulses.
3) You're comparing incomplete data sets. You show three pulses at 100/100/60 and then 5 at 100/100/77. That's hardly conclusive.
4) The impact of mentals on a skill at nearly 800 ranks is minimal. You would need more than 20 minutes to see a significant difference.
Note: having not looked at the code, my guess is as good as yours, blah blah ignorant disclaimer.
Here's an idea. Find a skill at 0. Use stat respec and give yourself 10 int/wis and 100 disc. Mind lock it. Let it drain from lock to zero and measure the pulses and amount drained. Now, give yourself 10 int/wis/disc (or whatever your racial defaults are). Lock a skill in the same skillset, then measure the gain. Try to insure the ranks are approximately the same starting point.
Do this on the low end and the high end of your skills.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 06:03 PM CST
>> Are those full pulses from mindlock, or just single pulses?
Single pulses. Started above 20.
>> 2) There are diminishing returns based on the skill level, so 17 disc wouldn't have a visible effect with only 5 pulses.
>> 3) You're comparing incomplete data sets. You show three pulses at 100/100/60 and then 5 at 100/100/77. That's hardly conclusive.
It doesn't matter how many pulses I used. The exp rate is the same with variables of .01. E.g. 1.33, 1.34. It would have been the same had i used 100 pulses within the same rank.
>> 4) The impact of mentals on a skill at nearly 800 ranks is minimal. You would need more than 20 minutes to see a significant difference.
Any evidence of this?
Based on my testing and the prior testing done, discipline does not matter at any levels of skill. You are more then welcome to test at the low end if you disagree.
Single pulses. Started above 20.
>> 2) There are diminishing returns based on the skill level, so 17 disc wouldn't have a visible effect with only 5 pulses.
>> 3) You're comparing incomplete data sets. You show three pulses at 100/100/60 and then 5 at 100/100/77. That's hardly conclusive.
It doesn't matter how many pulses I used. The exp rate is the same with variables of .01. E.g. 1.33, 1.34. It would have been the same had i used 100 pulses within the same rank.
>> 4) The impact of mentals on a skill at nearly 800 ranks is minimal. You would need more than 20 minutes to see a significant difference.
Any evidence of this?
Based on my testing and the prior testing done, discipline does not matter at any levels of skill. You are more then welcome to test at the low end if you disagree.
ILLIENA
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 06:12 PM CST
> It doesn't matter how many pulses I used. The exp rate is the same with variables of .01. E.g. 1.33, 1.34. It would have been the same had i used 100 pulses within the same rank.
This doesn't make any sense. If the effect of discipline were to increase your pulse size from 1.336 to 1.339, say, then the only way to tell would be to chart the frequency of 1.33 and 1.34 pulses.
This doesn't make any sense. If the effect of discipline were to increase your pulse size from 1.336 to 1.339, say, then the only way to tell would be to chart the frequency of 1.33 and 1.34 pulses.
DURATHING
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 06:13 PM CST
I would also suggest going from mindlock to clear for a test. It's possible that discipline affects the pool size, but not the pulse size. (Not saying the discipline is actually there - just brainstorming a way for it to be there, but not visible in a per-pulse study
DAENAR-DR
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 06:22 PM CST
>> This doesn't make any sense. If the effect of discipline were to increase your pulse size from 1.336 to 1.339, say, then the only way to tell would be to chart the frequency of 1.33 and 1.34 pulses.
Yup, if that's the case I'm satisfied with my #2 conclusion. Anyways, there was a significant number of tests before that had 100 pulses, etc. They came to the same conclusion.
>> I would also suggest going from mindlock to clear for a test. It's possible that discipline affects the pool size, but not the pulse size. (Not saying the discipline is actually there - just brainstorming a way for it to be there, but not visible in a per-pulse study
I thought of that, but decided it was too much trouble. That would take a lot of setup and a number of hours when drain rate is acceptable and much quicker to analyze.
Yup, if that's the case I'm satisfied with my #2 conclusion. Anyways, there was a significant number of tests before that had 100 pulses, etc. They came to the same conclusion.
>> I would also suggest going from mindlock to clear for a test. It's possible that discipline affects the pool size, but not the pulse size. (Not saying the discipline is actually there - just brainstorming a way for it to be there, but not visible in a per-pulse study
I thought of that, but decided it was too much trouble. That would take a lot of setup and a number of hours when drain rate is acceptable and much quicker to analyze.
DEARMANK
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 07:23 PM CST
>>I thought of that, but decided it was too much trouble. That would take a lot of setup and a number of hours when drain rate is acceptable and much quicker to analyze.
I'm confused, not to be too snarky but GM says Discipline affects pool size. You do some tests based on pulses and say that discipline does nothing and you're not willing to do test that will see if it actually affects pool size? Is that about right?
Mindlock to clear tests are the only way you're going to be able to tell if Discipline affects pool size. You could possibly go to a lower learning rate but that would possibly have a wide margin of error since it would be difficult to get to a point that's on the verge of another learning rate without going over or under.
I'm confused, not to be too snarky but GM says Discipline affects pool size. You do some tests based on pulses and say that discipline does nothing and you're not willing to do test that will see if it actually affects pool size? Is that about right?
Mindlock to clear tests are the only way you're going to be able to tell if Discipline affects pool size. You could possibly go to a lower learning rate but that would possibly have a wide margin of error since it would be difficult to get to a point that's on the verge of another learning rate without going over or under.
OLSONM6
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 07:29 PM CST
>Mindlock to clear tests are the only way you're going to be able to tell if Discipline affects pool size.
Well, not the only way to tell if there is, but probably the only way to tell that there isn't.
Well, not the only way to tell if there is, but probably the only way to tell that there isn't.
DURATHING
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 08:02 PM CST
Astrology might be a good skill to use to test this - with full pools, it takes seconds to mindlock.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 08:30 PM CST
>> I'm confused, not to be too snarky but GM says Discipline affects pool size. You do some tests based on pulses and say that >> discipline does nothing and you're not willing to do test that will see if it actually affects pool size? Is that about right?
Because if the pool size increase does not increase EXP DRAIN RATE, then it has NO EFFECT on Learning Rates. See the title, Learning != Pool Size. It may very well increase pool size, but if there is no effect on learning rate, then it does not affect learning and thus it does not matter to me.
My point is... Discipline does not affect learning. OR for the sticklers out there, Discipline learning is 100% negligible at 100 int/100 wis. I'll go ahead and draw the correlation to low end int/wis as well, but I know that will upset some of you, so you don't have to believe that.
After rereading through the numerous exp posts by Armifer and Zeyurn back in 2009, I'm fairly certain that discipline does nothing regardless of what Socharis noted.
It's also possible that when Socharis said minor it was something about the lines of.... "100 discipline adds 10 to a 1000 size pool."
Because if the pool size increase does not increase EXP DRAIN RATE, then it has NO EFFECT on Learning Rates. See the title, Learning != Pool Size. It may very well increase pool size, but if there is no effect on learning rate, then it does not affect learning and thus it does not matter to me.
My point is... Discipline does not affect learning. OR for the sticklers out there, Discipline learning is 100% negligible at 100 int/100 wis. I'll go ahead and draw the correlation to low end int/wis as well, but I know that will upset some of you, so you don't have to believe that.
After rereading through the numerous exp posts by Armifer and Zeyurn back in 2009, I'm fairly certain that discipline does nothing regardless of what Socharis noted.
It's also possible that when Socharis said minor it was something about the lines of.... "100 discipline adds 10 to a 1000 size pool."
RAIST
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 09:36 PM CST
>Because if the pool size increase does not increase EXP DRAIN RATE, then it has NO EFFECT on Learning Rates. See the title, Learning != Pool Size. It may very well increase pool size, but if there is no effect on learning rate, then it does not affect learning and thus it does not matter to me.
Drain is a % of max pool size. So increase to pool size increases drain rate.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Drain is a % of max pool size. So increase to pool size increases drain rate.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
GHEIFORT
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/09/2013 11:52 PM CST
>Drain is a % of max pool size. So increase to pool size increases drain rate.
I assume what he was saying that 17 stat increases to Discipline with the skill shown made no difference in the drain rate (Thus appearing to have no large factor in learning rate). Even using this small test he should have seen an increase in drain unless a 17 stat increase to discipline couldn't even cause his pool to increase large enough to gain .01 of an increase on his drain ticks.
Based on the information that has been posted I would say its pretty clear that discipline has either no or extremely small value to increasing learning rate.
I assume what he was saying that 17 stat increases to Discipline with the skill shown made no difference in the drain rate (Thus appearing to have no large factor in learning rate). Even using this small test he should have seen an increase in drain unless a 17 stat increase to discipline couldn't even cause his pool to increase large enough to gain .01 of an increase on his drain ticks.
Based on the information that has been posted I would say its pretty clear that discipline has either no or extremely small value to increasing learning rate.
GHEIFORT
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 12:02 AM CST
Sorry for the double post.
The only thing that I could think off right after posting was that learning rate could not being updating per pulse if not added experience is gained. For example:
You have 100 ranks in stealth. You are currently gaining an increase of 1.34 every pulse at 60 Discipline.
100.00 34/34
101.34 33/34
102.68 32/34
104.02 31/34
You then go and train discipline to 77 Discipline and still see the same exact ratio's occurring.
105.36 30/34
106.70 29/34
108.04 28/34
109.38 27/34
Everything above is explained already by what the original poster posted. Anyways, to further elaborate on the technical system I am describing in which a GM is the only one that can confirm or deny this:
Everytime you train something the system receives ##'s to determine how difficult the task was and how many exp points to allot you during that task. Everytime you add additional experience points to that skill it might take a snap shot of your pool and cause that specific % of a pool to drain UNTIL you go and add more experience to the pool.
You might try this to see if you see a difference now(Im not sure if you did this or not).
Go get your pool to 34/34 in a skill. Let it drain a few ticks down to 30/34 or whatever you want. Train Discipline 10-20 points (Whoever wants to test this as I cannot currently do this). Let it train a few more times to see that its still draining at the same ratio. Once that is complete go train that skill back up to 34/34 while still in the same rank and see if you're seeing an increase.
The technical limitations this game could potentially have is that its not actively updating your pool size when you train stat points. In essence, creating a snap shot of your pool size when you quit training that skill and only causing you to drain that % consistently until adding additional experience points to the pool with the larger pool.
I hope someone understands what I am talking about and im not completely causing everyones brains to explode.
The only thing that I could think off right after posting was that learning rate could not being updating per pulse if not added experience is gained. For example:
You have 100 ranks in stealth. You are currently gaining an increase of 1.34 every pulse at 60 Discipline.
100.00 34/34
101.34 33/34
102.68 32/34
104.02 31/34
You then go and train discipline to 77 Discipline and still see the same exact ratio's occurring.
105.36 30/34
106.70 29/34
108.04 28/34
109.38 27/34
Everything above is explained already by what the original poster posted. Anyways, to further elaborate on the technical system I am describing in which a GM is the only one that can confirm or deny this:
Everytime you train something the system receives ##'s to determine how difficult the task was and how many exp points to allot you during that task. Everytime you add additional experience points to that skill it might take a snap shot of your pool and cause that specific % of a pool to drain UNTIL you go and add more experience to the pool.
You might try this to see if you see a difference now(Im not sure if you did this or not).
Go get your pool to 34/34 in a skill. Let it drain a few ticks down to 30/34 or whatever you want. Train Discipline 10-20 points (Whoever wants to test this as I cannot currently do this). Let it train a few more times to see that its still draining at the same ratio. Once that is complete go train that skill back up to 34/34 while still in the same rank and see if you're seeing an increase.
The technical limitations this game could potentially have is that its not actively updating your pool size when you train stat points. In essence, creating a snap shot of your pool size when you quit training that skill and only causing you to drain that % consistently until adding additional experience points to the pool with the larger pool.
I hope someone understands what I am talking about and im not completely causing everyones brains to explode.
RAIST
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 12:07 AM CST
Actually, there's a simple way to test it.
There's a bug with TELLEXP that shows all pool states as if you were the one learning it.
Take 2 people, with all other stats identical but hugely dissimilar displine. If the pools are different, then it has an effect.
At least, assuming the bug was never fixed. I don't think I've checked in a while.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
There's a bug with TELLEXP that shows all pool states as if you were the one learning it.
Take 2 people, with all other stats identical but hugely dissimilar displine. If the pools are different, then it has an effect.
At least, assuming the bug was never fixed. I don't think I've checked in a while.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DAENAR-DR
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 12:47 AM CST
>Drain is a % of max pool size. So increase to pool size increases drain rate.
>> I assume what he was saying that 17 stat increases to Discipline with the skill shown made no difference in the drain rate (Thus appearing to have no large factor in learning rate).
Exactly.
>> Take 2 people, with all other stats identical but hugely dissimilar displine. If the pools are different, then it has an effect.
Nice, I'll give it a shot.
>> I assume what he was saying that 17 stat increases to Discipline with the skill shown made no difference in the drain rate (Thus appearing to have no large factor in learning rate).
Exactly.
>> Take 2 people, with all other stats identical but hugely dissimilar displine. If the pools are different, then it has an effect.
Nice, I'll give it a shot.
VOLCANUS
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 08:00 AM CST
From 2010, so I assume it's still relevant:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:So_if_you_had_to_do_it_now..._-_1/10/2010_-_11:59:39
>The effect of int/wis on ranks over 300 is low and over 600 is borderline unnoticeable.<
> The effect of int/wis is percentage based and not dependent on the rank you are on.
> The effect of int/wis cannot be 'tested' in just an hour, this is something that assists you over the course of your entire career.
> -Z
>> DR-ZEYURN
VOLCANUS
Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 08:30 AM CST
>> You are more then welcome to test at the low end if you disagree.
Your test. Your hasty conclusions. Built on your lack of evidence. And then your challenge for someone else to do it in a measurable way.
Alright. Challenge accepted. I'll report back in a few hours.
Your test. Your hasty conclusions. Built on your lack of evidence. And then your challenge for someone else to do it in a measurable way.
Alright. Challenge accepted. I'll report back in a few hours.
VOLCANUS
[Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 01:10 PM CST
Results: Disicpline boosts learning rates as claimed.
The difference of 99 discipline and 10 discipline on a brand new skill had the following results:
- The test skills learned 0 20.06% more ranks (3.2%) with the higher discipline.
- The test skills had *1 less pulse per rank* for ranks 1,3, 4,5, and 6. Rank 2 had the same amount of pulses per rank in both tests.
- The test skill appeared to drain out in 50 minutes with 99 discipline and 128 minutes with 10 discipline (Note additional testing is needed as I didn't start watching the times until the 10 discipline test based on the perceived 99 discipline speed). If true, it greatly increases the value of discipline for low level skills and long-term hunting.
- A higher ranking skill of Astrology (363 ranks), while not explicitly covered in the test, drained .02 ranks (.33 : .31) more experience the higher discipline. This seems to contradict the point above; however, it was locked long-term and did not drain.
- The affect of 99 disc on each pulse provided the following experience benefit, excluding possibly shorter pulses:
- - - Rank 1: 02.72% more experience each pulse (10.19% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 5.44% - 8.16% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 2: 02.39% more experience each pulse (10.00% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 7.17% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 3: 01.37% more experience each pulse (8.20% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 6.85% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 4: 01.62% more experience each pulse (9.70% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 6.48% - 8.1% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 5: 00.96% more experience each pulse (7.91% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 6.72% - 7.68% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 6: 01.15% more experience each pulse (9.43% more than 10 discipline) - total of (roughly) 6.90% - 8.05% more exp for the rank, accounting for pulse count.
- - - Rank 7: not enough information.
It would be great if someone could check my napkin math.
Testing Details:
I took a level 88 gnome moon mage, respected to baseline stats, and 2 weapons skills at 0 ranks.
In the first test, I boosted the discipline to 99, strength to 20, and stamina to 20. I logged out and back in. I tool one weapon (small blunt) from 0% - 1 17% to reach mindlock. I then let it pulse down while running a magic/lore script.
In the second test. I reset the stats boosted strength to 20 and stamina to 20. I logged out and back in. I then took staves to 0.02% to 1.01% and mind locked. I then let it pulse down. while running the same magic/lore script.
The following skills were trained: sorcery, tm, utility, perception, outdoorsmanship, augmentation, attunement, astrology, appraisal, scholarship, and arcana.
Note that more of the non-tested skills were locked during the 2nd drain when compared to the first.
All bonus pools were turned off for these tests. Tracking timers were reset between tests.
All tests were performed in the fallen.
Additional Notes:
There were some odd pulses in both sets where the mind state didn't change. This appeared to happen more often for the lower discipline. Possibly a rounding error or pool size differentiation. Unknown really, but interesting enough to mention.
It also appears that some form of wall ranks still exist. Rank 4 drained better than Rank 3, and Rank 6 drained better than Rank 5. Interestingly enough, this wasn't observed as strongly during the low discipline test.
[BUG REPORT] - by the way, there's a bug that if you die, depart, reset stats with sickness, and go train then you'll have a + next every stat after the spirit death fades - logging out and in clears it.
The Data:
Strength : 20 Reflex : 14
Agility : 12 Charisma : 10
Discipline : 99 Wisdom : 10
Intelligence : 14 Stamina : 20
Concentration : 338 Max : 338
Pulse Log:
Small Blunt: 1 17.64% mind lock (34/34)
Small Blunt: 1 47.05% nearly locked (33/34) +29.41%
Small Blunt: 1 76.47% enthralled (32/34) +29.42%
Small Blunt: 2 04.09% very rapt (31/34) +27.62%
Small Blunt: 2 30.37% rapt (30/34) +26.28%
Small Blunt: 2 56.65% very riveted (29/34) +26.28%
Small Blunt: 2 82.93% riveted (28/34) +26.28%
Small Blunt: 3 07.12% engrossed (27/34) +24.19%
Small Blunt: 3 25.20% captivated (26/34) +18.08%
Small Blunt: 3 43.28% fascinated (25/34) +18.08%
Small Blunt: 3 61.36% fascinated (25/34) +18.08%
Small Blunt: 3 79.45% cogitating (24/34) +18.08%
Small Blunt: 3 97.53% very engaged (23/34) +18.08%
Small Blunt: 4 12.99% engaged (22/34) +15.46%
Small Blunt: 4 31.32% very focused (21/34) +18.33%
Small Blunt: 4 49.65% focused (20/34) +18.33%
Small Blunt: 4 67.98% studious (19/34) +18.33%
Small Blunt: 4 86.31% analyzing (18/34) +18.33%
Small Blunt: 5 03.66% scrutinizing (17/34) +17.35%
Small Blunt: 5 16.76% intrigued (16/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 5 29.86% absorbing (15/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 5 42.96% absorbing (15/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 5 56.06% understanding (14/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 5 69.17% examining (13/34) +13.11%
Small Blunt: 5 82.27% interested (12/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 5 95.37% deliberative (11/34) +13.10%
Small Blunt: 6 07.08% attentive (10/34) +11.71%
Small Blunt: 6 20.42% attentive (10/34) +13.34%
Small Blunt: 6 33.77% concentrating (9/34) +13.35%
Small Blunt: 6 47.11% ruminating (8/34) +13.34%
Small Blunt: 6 60.46% pondering (7/34) +13.35%
Small Blunt: 6 73.80% considering (6/34) +13.34%
Small Blunt: 6 87.14% thinking (5/34) +13.34%
Small Blunt: 7 00.28% thoughtful (4/34) +13.14%
Small Blunt: 7 10.34% learning (3/34) +10.06%
Small Blunt: 7 20.40% perusing (2/34) +10.06%
Small Blunt: 7 30.45% perusing (2/34) +10.06%
Small Blunt: 7 40.51% dabbling (1/34) +10.06%
Small Blunt: 7 44.25% clear (0/34) + 3.74%
Total pulses: 39
Total Experience: 6 26.61%
Experience Range: 1 17.64 - 7 44.25
Total Pulse time: ~50 minutes. (_Needs to be verified_)
Average pulse by rank (excluding transition pulses with rank gains):
- Rank 1: 29.42% (2 pulses, ~.01% deviation)
- Rank 2: 26.28% (3 pulses, 0% deviation)
- Rank 3: 18.08% (5 pulses, 0% deviation)
- Rank 4: 18.33% (4 pulses, 0% deviation)
- Rank 5: 13.10% (7 pulses, ~.01% deviation)
- Rank 6: 13.34% (6 pulses, ~.01% deviation)
- Rank 7: 10.06% (4 pulses, expected 9 total within rank, 0% deviation)
Strength : 20 Reflex : 14
Agility : 12 Charisma : 10
Discipline : 10 Wisdom : 10
Intelligence : 14 Stamina : 20
Concentration : 71 Max : 71
Staves: 1 01.35% mind lock (34/34)
Staves: 1 28.05% nearly locked (33/34) +26.70%
Staves: 1 54.75% enthralled (32/34) +26.70%
Staves: 1 81.44% very rapt (31/34) +26.69%
Staves: 2 05.80% very rapt (30/34) +24.36%
Staves: 2 29.69% very riveted (29/34) +23.89%
Staves: 2 53.58% riveted (28/34) +23.89%
Staves: 2 77.47% engrossed (27/34) +23.89%
Staves: 3 00.82% captivated (26/34) +23.35%
Staves: 3 17.53% fascinated (25/34) +16.71%
Staves: 3 34.24% fascinated (25/34) +16.71%
Staves: 3 50.95% cogitating (24/34) +16.71%
Staves: 3 67.67% very engaged (23/34) +16.72%
Staves: 3 84.38% engaged (22/34) +16.71%
Staves: 4 00.69% very focused (21/34) +16.31%
Staves: 4 17.40% focused (20/34) +16.71%
Staves: 4 34.10% studious (19/34) +16.70%
Staves: 4 50.81% analyzing (18/34) +16.71%
Staves: 4 67.51% scrutinizing (17/34) +16.70% *
Staves: 4 84.22% scrutinizing (17/34) +16.71%
Staves: 5 00.57% absorbing (15/34) +16.35%
Staves: 5 12.71% absorbing (15/34) +12.71%
Staves: 5 24.85% understanding (14/34) +12.14%
Staves: 5 36.99% examining (13/34) +12.14%
Staves: 5 49.13% interested (12/34) +12.14%
Staves: 5 61.27% deliberative (11/34) +12.14%
Staves: 5 73.41% deliberative (11/34) +12.14%
Staves: 5 85.54% attentive (10/34) +12.13%
Staves: 5 97.68% concentrating (9/34) +12.14%
Staves: 6 08.23% ruminating (8/34) +10.55%
Staves: 6 20.42% pondering (7/34) +12.19%
Staves: 6 32.61% considering (6/34) +12.19%
Staves: 6 44.81% thinking (5/34) +12.20%
Staves: 6 57.00% thoughtful (4/34) +12.19%
Staves: 6 69.19% thoughtful (4/34) +12.19%
Staves: 6 81.38% learning (3/34) +12.19%
Staves: 6 93.57% perusing (2/34) +12.19%
Staves: 7 04.88% dabbling (1/34) +11.31%
Staves: 7 07.90% clear (0/34) + 3.02%
*Note that this is where the hour mark passed in pulsing, I had 9 skills locked compared to the 3-4 for the prior run).
Total pulses: 39
Total Experience: 6 06.55%
Experience Range: 1 01.35% - 7 07.90%
Total Pulse time: ~128 minutes.
Average pulse by rank (excluding transition pulses with rank gains):
- Rank 1: 26.70% (3 pulses, <.01% deviation)
- Rank 2: 23.89% (3 pulses, 0% deviation)
- Rank 3: 16.71% (4 pulses, <.01% deviation)
- Rank 4: 16.71% (5 pulses, ~.01% deviation)
- Rank 5: 12.14% (8 pulses, <.01% deviation)
- Rank 6: 12.19% (7 pulses, <.01% deviation)
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 01:13 PM CST
Results: Disicpline boosts learning rates as claimed.
Interpretation: Discipline boosts learning rates but the effect is somewhat trivial compared to the effect int/wisdom have on learning rates. Unless you're already gotten int/wisdom to 100, it's optimal to ignore discipline's bonus to experience and instead recommend it for other ancillary benefits like shield blocking, hiding success rate, stat contest defense, and such.
Interpretation: Discipline boosts learning rates but the effect is somewhat trivial compared to the effect int/wisdom have on learning rates. Unless you're already gotten int/wisdom to 100, it's optimal to ignore discipline's bonus to experience and instead recommend it for other ancillary benefits like shield blocking, hiding success rate, stat contest defense, and such.
VOLCANUS
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 01:35 PM CST
>> Results: Discipline boosts learning rates as claimed.
>> Interpretation: Discipline boosts learning rates but the effect is somewhat trivial compared to the effect int/wisdom have on learning rates.
The point was to prove out why the earlier tests were failing and to correct false information. I think I've done that. It was never to say that Disc was a better investment than intellect.
However, to argue your new point, didn't DR-SOCHARIS say, "So I looked into this, and [Discipline] was never taken out - It's not as significant as intelligence, but it definitely increases your [experience] pool size." That sounds an awful lot like a claim that disc affected learning rates, which it clearly does.
I wouldn't call 1 less pulse per rank trivial. It's 10% more login bonus for a fresh skill, and ~2% more login bonus for something in the 300 rank range. That would add up very quickly for someone who locks, leaves, and comes back. It's essentially a free rank every 10 - 50 cycles (or 1 mid 300's rank every two days for a player logged in 24/7). Assuming a static progression of 1 pulse each rank and about 5 minutes between each pulse, the difference between 10 and 99 disc is 3.5 days at the keyboard for 1000 ranks. I think it's fair to say that that adds up.
True int/wis is worth more in this area, but they also do less elsewhere, especially in combat.
>> Unless you're already gotten int/wisdom to 100,
I don't think we've tested diminishing returns or compared relative value to TDP costs to say this right now.
>> it's optimal to ignore discipline's bonus to experience and instead recommend it for other ancillary benefits like shield blocking, hiding success rate, stat contest defense, and such.
I, personally, won't train discipline solely for the XP drain, but I will factor in XP drain when I compare it against the other stats I want to level. This is especially true if I'm planning on back-training. I think I will do a few more tests in the coming weeks to try and get a handle on diminishing returns, time permitting; and maybe this will change my mind on it's worth. Not enough information to decide.
DAENAR-DR
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 05:52 PM CST
>>The point was to prove out why the earlier tests were failing and to correct false information. I think I've done that. It was never to say that Disc was a better investment than intellect.
Not false. I proved it does nothing at 800 ranks with 100/100. You showed a 3.2% difference at 0 ranks. Ranks that have 1000% drain rate bonus. You then used that 3.2% and applied it to all skill ranks? I bet by 100 ranks that 3.2% is gone.
Feel free to test again.
VOLCANUS
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 06:42 PM CST
Your origional statements were
> 1) Discipline does not affect exp learning.
> or
> 2) Discipline's benefit (+17 discipline) is so small that it is not currently measurable.
I've proven that 1 is false. Disc does affect learning rates.
I've also shown that disc does have a very minor impact on a skill at just under 350 ranks.
Based on this, we can assume that the learning rates are diminishing, but it's unknown how much or when they approach zero. Also remember that my tests were also done in a vacuum. They did not take into affect any boosts from INT / WIS, nor any combinations (perhaps int and disc work better in combination), or other stats that may prolong life (stamina) and subsequent field xp.
>> Not false. I proved it does nothing at 800 ranks with 100/100. You showed a 3.2% difference at 0 ranks. Ranks that have 1000% drain rate bonus. You then used that 3.2% and applied it to all skill ranks? I bet by 100 ranks that 3.2% is gone.
Neither of us knows. More testing is required as we're both guessing at the level of diminishing returns for a skill in the 800 range.
>> Feel free to test again.
I will if I find the time and desire later on, but you're more than welcome to add some additional data points.
> 1) Discipline does not affect exp learning.
> or
> 2) Discipline's benefit (+17 discipline) is so small that it is not currently measurable.
I've proven that 1 is false. Disc does affect learning rates.
I've also shown that disc does have a very minor impact on a skill at just under 350 ranks.
Based on this, we can assume that the learning rates are diminishing, but it's unknown how much or when they approach zero. Also remember that my tests were also done in a vacuum. They did not take into affect any boosts from INT / WIS, nor any combinations (perhaps int and disc work better in combination), or other stats that may prolong life (stamina) and subsequent field xp.
>> Not false. I proved it does nothing at 800 ranks with 100/100. You showed a 3.2% difference at 0 ranks. Ranks that have 1000% drain rate bonus. You then used that 3.2% and applied it to all skill ranks? I bet by 100 ranks that 3.2% is gone.
Neither of us knows. More testing is required as we're both guessing at the level of diminishing returns for a skill in the 800 range.
>> Feel free to test again.
I will if I find the time and desire later on, but you're more than welcome to add some additional data points.
VEE-REX
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/10/2013 06:47 PM CST
>>I will if I find the time and desire later on, but you're more than welcome to add some additional data points.
Don't bother. The GM said Discipline does affect learning and your test proved it. Look at the title of the thread. The OP said it doesn't and is trying to backpedal now.
I remember the Daenar-DR user from awhile back and he/she/it was nearly as bad as J'Lo with information and argues for no reason. No reason to get into it with it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Don't bother. The GM said Discipline does affect learning and your test proved it. Look at the title of the thread. The OP said it doesn't and is trying to backpedal now.
I remember the Daenar-DR user from awhile back and he/she/it was nearly as bad as J'Lo with information and argues for no reason. No reason to get into it with it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/11/2013 05:44 AM CST
>>I wouldn't call 1 less pulse per rank trivial. It's 10% more login bonus for a fresh skill, and ~2% more login bonus for something in the 300 rank range. That would add up very quickly for someone who locks, leaves, and comes back.
It's 10% more login bonus when you add 80 extra discipline. 0.125% more login bonus point per point is an extremely poor return-of-investment when compared against intelligence or wisdom.
If you're level 150 and rerolling might you consider putting more into discipline? Sure. But if you're grinding levels like a normal person and don't instantly have access to 50k TDPs, discipline's a pretty poor choice for your TDP investment if experience gain is your primary choice. You're still going to get more "value per TDP" even if your intelligence and wisdom cost twice as much to pump up.
It's 10% more login bonus when you add 80 extra discipline. 0.125% more login bonus point per point is an extremely poor return-of-investment when compared against intelligence or wisdom.
If you're level 150 and rerolling might you consider putting more into discipline? Sure. But if you're grinding levels like a normal person and don't instantly have access to 50k TDPs, discipline's a pretty poor choice for your TDP investment if experience gain is your primary choice. You're still going to get more "value per TDP" even if your intelligence and wisdom cost twice as much to pump up.
CARDINALE01
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/11/2013 05:52 AM CST
>>It's 10% more login bonus when you add 80 extra discipline. 0.125% more login bonus point per point is an extremely poor return-of-investment when compared against intelligence or wisdom.
If you're level 150 and rerolling might you consider putting more into discipline? Sure. But if you're grinding levels like a normal person and don't instantly have access to 50k TDPs, discipline's a pretty poor choice for your >>TDP investment if experience gain is your primary choice. You're still going to get more "value per TDP" even if your intelligence and wisdom cost twice as much to pump up.
That wasn't the question. The OP claimed it does not affect learning at all, which was then proven to be false. He's not trying to say everyone should stack Discipline. He was just disproving a false claim because the OP was too lazy to actually do his own thorough testing.
If you're level 150 and rerolling might you consider putting more into discipline? Sure. But if you're grinding levels like a normal person and don't instantly have access to 50k TDPs, discipline's a pretty poor choice for your >>TDP investment if experience gain is your primary choice. You're still going to get more "value per TDP" even if your intelligence and wisdom cost twice as much to pump up.
That wasn't the question. The OP claimed it does not affect learning at all, which was then proven to be false. He's not trying to say everyone should stack Discipline. He was just disproving a false claim because the OP was too lazy to actually do his own thorough testing.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: [Testing Results] Re: Discipline does not affect learning.
02/11/2013 08:15 AM CST
>>That wasn't the question. The OP claimed it does not affect learning at all, which was then proven to be false. He's not trying to say everyone should stack Discipline. He was just disproving a false claim because the OP was too lazy to actually do his own thorough testing.
I know. I'm not responding to that, he clearly demonstrated it does have an effect on learning rate.
I know. I'm not responding to that, he clearly demonstrated it does have an effect on learning rate.
