Wait.. first of all there's too much going on here..
I'll start by setting some things straight.
1. I am obviously ignorant to Magic. I've never used it beyond when my thief could use rune... SO note that time period. and I am ERKed that I've come back and can't cause it WAS my favorite past-time. I'll happily admit to this..and am only speaking from my observation about magic.. so relax
2. I will never be happy that they were taken away. It seemed like such a big thing to change...
3. Evrans.. I'm happy you told me wands could be adjusted... especially happy you noted that a thief can actually use a wand successfully I don't know what I'm missing on these forums.. I guess a lot I don't read them daily.. I guess that's the problem..
4. I'll try and bottle my problem. without bringing anything else to it.
here it is.
~ okay so a thief can Successfully use a wand IF they have it adjusted AND their MD is high enough AND they're in a room that has the necessary mana to cast it? is it even useful in such a limited context?
~ Next your confusing when I said use and changin' it to cast successfully. I definately understand the difference.
~ sorry getting off again.. I'll put it into 2 lines
.. Why wands and not runes for NMU's? Difference? How can charmed items be an auto-cast when they're on the same charge system as runes and wands?
~SlOANJ11.. I just thought cambrinth's were mana holders.. didn't know it had anything to do with the mana in the room.. my bad
PS.. I go to read the forums.. I see 2 next to this subject.. where are the others?
~If you can answer that 2 lines and make sense to me.. I'll shut up forever and I'll never post again.. in here.. for a week..
"IF consequences dictate the course of action I take. It doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught." Maynard James Keenan
2.
CULBRETHMR
BONECHEWER
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:07 PM CST
I'm pretty sure all of your revised questions were answered if you could be bothered to read the posts in response to yours.
>.. Why wands and not runes for NMU's? Difference? How can charmed items be an auto-cast when they're on the same charge system as runes and wands?
It's been said numerous times, runes only temporarily give you the knowledge of the spell's pattern in your head. You still have to be the one to cast it. Example: Making a presidential inauguration speech. The rune is a copy of hte speech you could read off from.
Wands, on the otherhand, is like playing back a tape recorder that makes the speech for you, i.e. the spell is cast from the wand, not you.
>.. Why wands and not runes for NMU's? Difference? How can charmed items be an auto-cast when they're on the same charge system as runes and wands?
It's been said numerous times, runes only temporarily give you the knowledge of the spell's pattern in your head. You still have to be the one to cast it. Example: Making a presidential inauguration speech. The rune is a copy of hte speech you could read off from.
Wands, on the otherhand, is like playing back a tape recorder that makes the speech for you, i.e. the spell is cast from the wand, not you.
ROBERTDH
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:22 PM CST
>>.. Why wands and not runes for NMU's? Difference? How can charmed items be an auto-cast when they're on the same charge system as runes and wands?
I am getting details wrong... but here's the ghist...
Spells have three steps:
1) You shape local mana into a spell pattern. Mana resists being moved: this builds up frictional spell energy.
2) Optionally, you can create a secondary pattern ("harnessed" mana) to build up more friction for the purposes of dumping the energy into the spell.
3) The spell's physical trigger - usually some kind of gesture - undoes these patterns. The mana snaps back into place and the release of spell energy cascades out to affect the physical laws.
Runes are crystalline objects who's structure is such that the can be constructed in one and fixed there. It is something like a gelatin mold. Activating the rune shows you what Step One of spell casting should look like. If you do not know how to mix gelatin, this knowledge would be useless even if you could see the mold in the first place.
A more complicated magical device, such as a wand, can contain a pattern, build up a charge, and release it all by itself. All you have to do is provide some kind of physical trigger.
>> ~SlOANJ11.. I just thought cambrinth's were mana holders.. didn't know it had anything to do with the mana in the room.. my bad
Magical theory changed profoundly in respect to mana. Nothing is capable of "holding" mana, because mana is essentially a geological formation not a substance: It can't be moved. You fill Cambrinth by doing step 2 and cascading that frictional spell energy into the Cambrinth, from whence you can eventually dump it into a pattern... provided construct a pathway from the cambrinth to your spell pattern.
I am getting details wrong... but here's the ghist...
Spells have three steps:
1) You shape local mana into a spell pattern. Mana resists being moved: this builds up frictional spell energy.
2) Optionally, you can create a secondary pattern ("harnessed" mana) to build up more friction for the purposes of dumping the energy into the spell.
3) The spell's physical trigger - usually some kind of gesture - undoes these patterns. The mana snaps back into place and the release of spell energy cascades out to affect the physical laws.
Runes are crystalline objects who's structure is such that the can be constructed in one and fixed there. It is something like a gelatin mold. Activating the rune shows you what Step One of spell casting should look like. If you do not know how to mix gelatin, this knowledge would be useless even if you could see the mold in the first place.
A more complicated magical device, such as a wand, can contain a pattern, build up a charge, and release it all by itself. All you have to do is provide some kind of physical trigger.
>> ~SlOANJ11.. I just thought cambrinth's were mana holders.. didn't know it had anything to do with the mana in the room.. my bad
Magical theory changed profoundly in respect to mana. Nothing is capable of "holding" mana, because mana is essentially a geological formation not a substance: It can't be moved. You fill Cambrinth by doing step 2 and cascading that frictional spell energy into the Cambrinth, from whence you can eventually dump it into a pattern... provided construct a pathway from the cambrinth to your spell pattern.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:34 PM CST
>>1)
Yup.
>>2)
Yup.
>>3)
Sort of. The physical gesture is theoretically optional. It's there for two reasons. In lore speak, because magicians are human(ish) and like having little rituals and mnemonic devices to focus themselves. In game speak, because it makes the process look a little more impressive and engaging.
The gesturing is useful and comforting to the magician, but in the end magic happens in his brain.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
Yup.
>>2)
Yup.
>>3)
Sort of. The physical gesture is theoretically optional. It's there for two reasons. In lore speak, because magicians are human(ish) and like having little rituals and mnemonic devices to focus themselves. In game speak, because it makes the process look a little more impressive and engaging.
The gesturing is useful and comforting to the magician, but in the end magic happens in his brain.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:35 PM CST
With all this talk of magic and mana theory, these might be helpful:
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Mana
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Cambrinth
Rev. Reene
Gylwyn says to you, "Heretics are often the finders of truth."
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Mana
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Cambrinth
Rev. Reene
Gylwyn says to you, "Heretics are often the finders of truth."
MOOK1
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:47 PM CST
<<.. Why wands and not runes for NMU's? Difference? How can charmed items be an auto-cast when they're on the same charge system as runes and wands?
...
... ...
Because of their functions...
All that runes do it PREPARE the spell for the user when rubbed. That's it. Period. Finito. Everything else must be manually done by the user. HARNessing. TARGETing. CASTing. An NMU cannot do any of these things.
Wands do it all on their own. Preparing the spell, manipulating the mana, creating the targeting matrix and casting. Everything. The whole shebang. All that is required by the user is to WAVE it. A monkey could do it if it had enough MD.
I really don't understand how these major differences between wands and runes are so hard to comprehend.
<<~ Next your confusing when I said use and changin' it to cast successfully. I definately understand the difference.
Based on your posts... No, no you don't. You never even brought up adjusting the power levels at all.
<<and I am ERKed that I've come back and can't cause it WAS my favorite past-time.
<<I will never be happy that they were taken away. It seemed like such a big thing to change...
I suppose this explains the blinders you're wearing.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
...
... ...
Because of their functions...
All that runes do it PREPARE the spell for the user when rubbed. That's it. Period. Finito. Everything else must be manually done by the user. HARNessing. TARGETing. CASTing. An NMU cannot do any of these things.
Wands do it all on their own. Preparing the spell, manipulating the mana, creating the targeting matrix and casting. Everything. The whole shebang. All that is required by the user is to WAVE it. A monkey could do it if it had enough MD.
I really don't understand how these major differences between wands and runes are so hard to comprehend.
<<~ Next your confusing when I said use and changin' it to cast successfully. I definately understand the difference.
Based on your posts... No, no you don't. You never even brought up adjusting the power levels at all.
<<and I am ERKed that I've come back and can't cause it WAS my favorite past-time.
<<I will never be happy that they were taken away. It seemed like such a big thing to change...
I suppose this explains the blinders you're wearing.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 10:54 PM CST
Can someone check on gonif? I think she might've kicked it because this guy seems to be channeling her.
Rev. Reene
Gylwyn says to you, "Heretics are often the finders of truth."
Rev. Reene
Gylwyn says to you, "Heretics are often the finders of truth."
MOOK1
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 11:00 PM CST
<<Can someone check on gonif? I think she might've kicked it because this guy seems to be channeling her.
Heh. That theory doesn't hold water though since he can't channel anything being an NMU.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
Heh. That theory doesn't hold water though since he can't channel anything being an NMU.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
SLOANJ11
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/25/2008 11:18 PM CST
>>~SlOANJ11.. I just thought cambrinth's were mana holders.. didn't know it had anything to do with the mana in the room.. my bad
Well. Sort of. Spells have min and max preps. Say a spells minimum prep (the lowest ammount of mana needed to cast it) was 5 and it capped at 60. If you want to cast it at 60 mana, you can use mana stored in cambrinth for 55 of that, but you always have to be able to harness at least the minimum in order to complete the spell's pattern. So If I charge my cambrinth up, I can walk into a room with low mana and cast the spell, using cambrinth to make up for the slack. But if there isn't enough mana to at least harness the minimum (5 or whatever) then the spell will fail, regardless of the fact that I have more than enough in the camb.
Well. Sort of. Spells have min and max preps. Say a spells minimum prep (the lowest ammount of mana needed to cast it) was 5 and it capped at 60. If you want to cast it at 60 mana, you can use mana stored in cambrinth for 55 of that, but you always have to be able to harness at least the minimum in order to complete the spell's pattern. So If I charge my cambrinth up, I can walk into a room with low mana and cast the spell, using cambrinth to make up for the slack. But if there isn't enough mana to at least harness the minimum (5 or whatever) then the spell will fail, regardless of the fact that I have more than enough in the camb.
ROBERTDH
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 12:08 AM CST
>>The gesturing is useful and comforting to the magician, but in the end magic happens in his brain.
Hrm? I was under the impression that preparation gestures were a mental crutch, but casting gestures were required? Hence why we are able to hide our preps but unable to avoid the (near) gesture when we cast.
Is there some confusion here or is this an indication that it might be possible to say, cast and remain in hiding?
Hrm? I was under the impression that preparation gestures were a mental crutch, but casting gestures were required? Hence why we are able to hide our preps but unable to avoid the (near) gesture when we cast.
Is there some confusion here or is this an indication that it might be possible to say, cast and remain in hiding?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 02:55 AM CST
>>Is there some confusion here or is this an indication that it might be possible to say, cast and remain in hiding?
A touch of confusion. The reason you can't cast and remain hidden is because we currently don't want people to be able cast while remaining hidden. It's entirely a game-balance decision. There may eventually come a skill check, special ability, or special spell that lets you do that, and it'd be a-okay from the fiction standpoint.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
A touch of confusion. The reason you can't cast and remain hidden is because we currently don't want people to be able cast while remaining hidden. It's entirely a game-balance decision. There may eventually come a skill check, special ability, or special spell that lets you do that, and it'd be a-okay from the fiction standpoint.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
TELGER
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 05:34 AM CST
>>Is there some confusion here or is this an indication that it might be possible to say, cast and remain in hiding?
Most flaming fireballs, moonrays, green glows etc. aren't conducive to concealing your location.
~Thilan
Most flaming fireballs, moonrays, green glows etc. aren't conducive to concealing your location.
~Thilan
ROBERTDH
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 05:36 PM CST
>>Most flaming fireballs, moonrays, green glows etc. aren't conducive to concealing your location.
But nobody's ever seen an Aether Lash (loud as one may be).
But nobody's ever seen an Aether Lash (loud as one may be).
GODBANE
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 06:44 PM CST
>A touch of confusion. The reason you can't cast and remain hidden is because we currently don't want people to be able cast while remaining hidden. It's entirely a game-balance decision. There may eventually come a skill check, special ability, or special spell that lets you do that, and it'd be a-okay from the fiction standpoint.
Refractive Field being castable while remaining hidden?
Refractive Field being castable while remaining hidden?
CULBRETHMR
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/26/2008 09:43 PM CST
okay... all I can say is thanks... you definately tried.
~ one LAST thing.. if wands are the speak and spell and runes are a book... why when I wave my wand.. I can put it away.. then cast it???
"If consequences dictate the course of action I take. It doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. -Maynard James Keenan-
"So it goes." Vonnegut
~ one LAST thing.. if wands are the speak and spell and runes are a book... why when I wave my wand.. I can put it away.. then cast it???
"If consequences dictate the course of action I take. It doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. -Maynard James Keenan-
"So it goes." Vonnegut
MOOK1
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
11/27/2008 12:14 PM CST
>wave wand at swai
You wave your ilmenite-tipped wand at a bawdy swain.
A bolt of bluish lightning blazes out of the sky toward a bawdy swain!
The bolt grazes its chest, briefly surrounding its body in brilliant white sky-fire.
The bawdy swain is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 2 seconds.
>rub rune
You rub a dark silver sraeth runestone.
The Soul Bonding spell leaps from the runestone into your mind and you begin to prepare it.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
You wave your ilmenite-tipped wand at a bawdy swain.
A bolt of bluish lightning blazes out of the sky toward a bawdy swain!
The bolt grazes its chest, briefly surrounding its body in brilliant white sky-fire.
The bawdy swain is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 2 seconds.
>rub rune
You rub a dark silver sraeth runestone.
The Soul Bonding spell leaps from the runestone into your mind and you begin to prepare it.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.
MACCABEE1
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
12/07/2008 08:36 AM CST
<< okay so a thief can Successfully use a wand IF they have it adjusted AND their MD is high enough AND they're in a room that has the necessary mana to cast it? is it even useful in such a limited context?>>
yes. just make sure you have a bard/WM check out the room you intend to use it in first to see if its a "good-mana-for-elemental" room.
yes. just make sure you have a bard/WM check out the room you intend to use it in first to see if its a "good-mana-for-elemental" room.
MACCABEE1
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
12/07/2008 08:42 AM CST
what i'd actually like to see is more self-activating devices sold in a regular <that is, 24-hour a day - non-festival>, and, of course - pilferable - shop. :-)
with preferably more than 1 type of spell within. that was the usefulness of the runes. one could compost trash, fool around with killing critters "magically", and other types of nefarious activity. I trust there are more than a few commoners <necros in training> with no other way to learn magical skills than from a class that would be interested in participating, not only thieves and traders. Of course, barbs will continue to do their own anti-magical "thing". :-)
with preferably more than 1 type of spell within. that was the usefulness of the runes. one could compost trash, fool around with killing critters "magically", and other types of nefarious activity. I trust there are more than a few commoners <necros in training> with no other way to learn magical skills than from a class that would be interested in participating, not only thieves and traders. Of course, barbs will continue to do their own anti-magical "thing". :-)
ENOTS
Re: Thieves abilty to use RUNES
12/07/2008 12:05 PM CST
>>what i'd actually like to see is more self-activating devices sold in a regular <that is, 24-hour a day - non-festival>, and, of course - pilferable - shop. :-)
Just a few days ago on the moon mage boards, someone suggested that the artificer shop in Crossing get expanded as far as inventory goes. Why not add the extra devices? :)
Anyway, one of the GMs found the idea interesting.
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Just a few days ago on the moon mage boards, someone suggested that the artificer shop in Crossing get expanded as far as inventory goes. Why not add the extra devices? :)
Anyway, one of the GMs found the idea interesting.
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
