In the distant past.. thieves were able to use RUNES... this ability was taken away, supposedly do to the fact; rather the complaint that thieves can't harness the necessary Mana needed to invoke the rune's spell. While this logic is consistant; it is also incomplete. Consider this, thieves can use CJ's, any ENCHANTED ITEMS, and WANDS; which for all practical purposes are RUNES!!!!! While the lack of ability to harness has merit I admit. This is a small problem that ANY intelligent and resourceful thief would of figured out LONG AGO. A thief ( IF ALLOWED ) would simply hire a mage, ranger, moonie, pally, cleric... OR ANY magic wielder to simply charge a specified Cambrinth Item with their particular flavor of Mana. This would then be used as the HARNESSED magic needed to invoke the rune's spell ( if they'd be allowed to release the Cambs harnessed magic.. and why not?) In conclusion I would argue that it is non-sensical that thieves can use SOME Magical Devices.. but not others.. Especially when they hold the Exact same property's... E.G. Wands and runes, SO IN SHORT..GIVE US BACK OUR RUNES!!! Please?!!! pretty please??!!! ~L~

<<In conclusion I would argue that it is non-sensical that thieves can use SOME Magical Devices.. but not others.. Especially when they hold the Exact same property's... E.G. Wands and runes,

I'm not sure how you managed to come to this conclusion since you kind of outlined it in the first bit of your post. Wands and runes are completely different mechanically. The wand casts and powers its spell all on its own, only its accuracy determined by the user's skill. Likewise, fans and cjs and similar items all provide the power required for them to function all on their own. All that runes do is let the user prepare the spell as if they had typed PREP <spell>. The user then has to supply all the mana and channel it into the spell themselves for it to function.

Cambrinth falls into the same category as runes: they require active magical manipulation by the user. The magic in cambrinth is not available to use just by rubbing or waving. The mana in it still needs to be harnessed and manipulated, just the source of that mana has shifted. Sure a mage could charge it, but you'd still have to be able to directly and actively manipulate it somehow to get it to power a spell.

I wouldn't get too worried about this, since I'm sure with the new enchanting lore skill that many spells will be allowed to be placed into wands or similar items. Granted, they'll probably be higher end items with runes being lower in difficulty, but I'm sure the option to purchase or commission them will be there.

-Evran

"Constitutions are meant to protect minorities -- not to take rights away from people." - Bruce Bastian

I really hope to see more self activating self powering magical devices with the mech split/enchanting rewrite. I'm risking misquoting someone here (Armifer I think) but one of the ideas they were tossing around was that many of the devices to be made by enchanting will have a 'rune like form' as the easiest. The user has to use their own knowledge and energy to activate the ability or spell. These enchantments would also have a higher skilled form where the enchanter could instead make them into self activating and self powering devices. I believe there was a caveat here, but I don't remember.

Again, I could be misquoting, misremembering, or misunderstanding... or things could have changed entirely since then. What I'm trying to say though, is don't give up hope. I think its likely that NMUs will have accesses to lots of toys to finally replace what you had to give up in runes in the nearish future.

- Player of Foresee

Ingredients: 100% real emotion

I see the points made by many of you. First off I'll be the first to admit that I'm no magic expert. But as far as you guys saying that wands and other magical devices such as the sandlewood fans differ from runes because they hold their own power and not just the spell pattern like runes. This is not true a NMU that has proficient MD skill and is able to activate Wands and sandlewood fans are STILL unable to use them because they DO NOT contain intrinsic power... an actived sandlewood fan will just create a wisp of smoke for a NMU. and a wand that is successfully activated will always fail due to lack of mana.... and that is the message given. So the arguement that wands are usable to NMU's because of their intrisic mana is false and shows the inconsistancy in the issue... WANDS DO NEED MANA TO WORK. SAME AS RUNES>... so why can NMU's use one and not the other... ??? that's my point..... please correct me if you disagree and can show me that NMU's can use wands with success... thanks ~L~

Just thought I'd address something else:

>>While the lack of ability to harness has merit I admit. This is a small problem that ANY intelligent and resourceful thief would of figured out LONG AGO. A thief ( IF ALLOWED ) would simply hire a mage, ranger, moonie, pally, cleric... OR ANY magic wielder to simply charge a specified Cambrinth Item with their particular flavor of Mana. This would then be used as the HARNESSED magic needed to invoke the rune's spell ( if they'd be allowed to release the Cambs harnessed magic.. and why not?)

Even if it WERE possible for a NMU to release the mana from cambrinth (and if that became possible, then it would also have to be possible for magic users to use the mana in cambrinth of a different type--a paladin using mana out of a ranger's life-mana attuned cambrinth, for instance)it wouldn't really help. The way cambrinth works, the mana in it can be used to increase the power of a spell, but you must harness at least the minimum prep for the spell without the cambrinth. For instance, I can have worn cambrinth on every part of my body, charged and ready to go, but if I'm in a room with vague mana where I can only manage to harness 1 or 2, I will fail to cast courage, which has a minimum prep of 5. So, applying this to your NMU, if he can't harness enough mana to activate that spell from the rune, cambrinth isn't going to help, even if he COULD use it. Cambrinth only allows you to cast spells at higher than minimum, without having to dip into your attunement as much. If that ever changes, and I can walk into a room with no mana and cast a spell using the mana in my cambrinth, then your argument might have a little more validity.

>>Point being that if you don't know how to cast a spell having a charged cambrinth shouldn't do you much good

Cambrinth provides a burst of incoherent spell energy. With finesse it can be moderated into a current (Bards, some devices), but it's still, in the end, just spell energy.

Spell energy isn't useful by itself. You'd need a lot of the stuff to meaningfully influence someone by just pointing a cambrinth death ray and pulling the lever. To actually summon down lightning, or even a bolt of pure energy, it needs to be shaped into a meaningful pattern, either by a device or by a magician's mind. Raw magic has an almost imperceptibly weak physical force; the neat trick is that it works upon Elanthian physics in a novel way.

-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl

<<THe same is with Wands..... I have over 80 ranks in MD and in the 60's in primary,harness, and power perception. I can SUCCESSFULLY activate wands every time but (due to lack of Mana) the spell can't work. ( you gesture and nothing happens ).... Wands don't hold Mana.. which is needed to cast ANY spell... either do enchanted items. Yet they work for NMU's..... but RUNES which don't hold mana either can't be rubbed by NMU's so what's going on here?.... why the difference... something needs to be done.... like NMU's being denied the use of ALL MD's or being allowed to use ALL MD's... with the exception of Cambrinths which must be Focused on and not just rubbed or waved.....

You are not understanding this at all. The 'lack of mana' message you are seeing is caused by the level of mana that the wand is set to use by a mage ahead of time. Each spell requires a minimum amount of mana to function. If a wand is set to provide too low a level of mana, that spell will not function because the wand is not putting enough mana into it and give the messaging you see about a lack of mana. I'll repeat this since its important to understanding this: that message means that the wand lacks the mana to cast the spell, not the user of the wand. Having a mage use FOCUS on the wand to increase the amount of mana the wand will use when activated will allow the spell to function.

Read this link which explains this all in yet another way including details on how to do it:

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Wands

Most specifically these lines, which I'll quote for even further emphasis. Bolding is my editing:
"To modify the power lines, type FOCUS WAND followed by any number from 1-100. For example, FOCUS WAND 100 will cause your character to attempt to turn the flow of the power lines to their maximum level, and FOCUS WAND 50% will attempt to set them to half power. The power lines fluctuate as the charges are used, and must be carefully readjusted after each cast. Generally, more powerful spells need a higher percentage of the flow intact. "
"Most wands work by waving or shaking them at the target, though other activation methods may exist. If the power flow is high enough, and the magical devices skill of the user is sufficient for the item, the spell is automatically resolved and cast upon the target without any further effort from the user."

Multiple people have repeated this to you multiple times in multiple ways, including a GM, and yet you are still blindly repeating your absolutely incorrect statements. One person in this thread who is a thief has even said that they personally are able to use wands to cast spells. Honestly, I don't even think you're reading any of the posts beyond that they're saying that you're wrong. Hopefully this one will sink in.

-Evran

Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.