I'd like to address a genuine concern regarding the new buff limits being expanded. I feel this only encourages the "gameplay" of having alts or bots buff up other characters which can have staggering impacts with regards to PVP. Gaining an additional +175 ranks in stealth, TM, evasion, shield, perception, etc is a huge impact, plus the additional 10+ stats that you can easily acquire for strength, reflex, agility, wisdom, intelligence, and possibly stamina depending on how courage works. Rangers can natively buff reflex, wisdom, evasion, stealth, and perception on someone else - while also using sorcery/tattoo slots to buff targeted magic, strength and agility, intelligence, and shield (though you'd have to pick three of those), and empaths are in a similar boat. This is widely going to come down to "who has the alt army available" and will further plague pvp scenarios where it's supposedly been acceptable to attack people over discussions on other mediums, buying an hlc for revenge, or just straight up doxing.

I am all for creating mechanics that encourage grouping together and doing xyz - I think having others buff you and giving you longer buff durations that way would have been suitable, but to create an unfair scenario where you cannot compete with someone unless you have your own bot army, or friends on demand, will cause issues. PVE has been easy enough that the added bonuses weren't necessary (as shown with traders who have gotten to 150-200 before trader magic was released.) I don't feel that this will encourage people to hunt together much more than they already have in the past - this doesn't fix the main issues of hunting together, ranging from RP angles, social conflicts, excessive scroll, arrow/bolt collection, other loot issues, and more. Those issues are what largely keeps people from hunting together - people weren't previously grouping up and saying "Hey, let's hunt together so I can cast swirling winds on you and you can cast shadows on me!" to fill in the gaps of where they were lacking, and I don't feel a stacking bonus is going to encourage it further.

I do understand if this in someway leads to future development - and I know that something always has to come first, but I largely feel that this should not exist at this time. Or at least have these buffs expansions completely removed from PVP contests, whether they are statistical or skill based.

Gotta agree with this. This won't encourage group play, it will encourage min-maxing and buff bots.

>>Don't they have spells that remove buffs? I don't pvp really, so forgive my ignorance if those aren't an option

Sure? If you can beat the contest in order to remove it, which will be potentially difficult if your target is buffed up beyond you are because of their alts.

Meh.

I'm tired of PVP balance ruining PVE gameplay, in many games.

It's not like most people engaged in fair fights and didn't use alts (Oh, I'm sorry, 'his wife') to farm consent anyway. Nothing's really going to change. People who abused systems before will continue to abuse systems, and if they were sitting around pushing bots to bump them they're going to do some other broken thing.

>>IMO, this sounds like an issue with PvP culture in DR (and DR's policy in general) more than a problem with buffbots/etc.

I mean.. yes? There are a lot of things in game, in life, etc that would be different if it were not because of the toxicity of participants. For as many things that get nerfed in this game because of a "couple people that abused it", I'm genuinely surprised that it seems okay to introduce a new avenue of abuse and then just brush it off because "people are going to abuse things anyway so let them go all out" and "people are toxic so it is their problem, not something that should be factored in."

But I guess the main difference this time is that this form of abuse could generate more revenue because it's encouraging people to make more subbed alts.

>>For as many things that get nerfed in this game because of a "couple people that abused it", I'm genuinely surprised that it seems okay to introduce a new avenue of abuse and then just brush it off because "people are going to abuse things anyway so let them go all out" and "people are toxic so it is their problem, not something that should be factored in."

I think there's a difference between players doing something intentional in a way that feels like cheating when other players have to deal with it and abusing an oversight/bug that is cheating based on what the GMs expect players to be able to do in the game.

I don't think that, right now, GMs are unaware that alts exist or that someone might just roll up a X to get a better boost to Y for some reason or another, most likely PvP purposes. Systems-wise, there is no real difference between two people buffing each other before PvPing a bunch of folks with their thumbs on the scales, than if it was one person with two characters.

This is different than, for example, being able to get and complete Corn Maze tasks outside of the maze itself, since GMs clearly didn't want that to happen (note: this was fixed forever ago so I don't think there's an issue using this example).

And, in my opinion, that's why this version of "cheating" isn't really "abusing a flaw in the game" as much as "not complying with a standard some in the PvP community want to set," which makes it even moreso of a "PvP culture" thing than an actual issue with the game itself.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>People will be jumping on discord asking their friends for buffs. The bonus to the buff will be way to attractive. (meta gaming already happens way way to much, but its not weighted towards a "performance enhancing drug" over another player like this will be)

>>Yes yes, I know a comeback from some will be that, "well this is just a problem with the culture of PvP and the people who engage in it"

I think you're describing the legitimate purpose of the expansion - having players ask other players to buff them, because it's an attractive carrot to have players work with each other.

But you are correct that if people feel buffing too much is "cheating" in PvP, that is a culture of PvP issue. Players asking other players to do something for them isn't a culture of PvP issue. In the worst light, it's a "Players should gweth that kind of stuff IC" issue.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

> People will be jumping on discord asking their friends for buffs.

That's a good thing, right? Anything that fosters positive social engagement seems good for a multiplayer game.

>>That's a good thing, right? Anything that fosters positive social engagement seems good for a multiplayer game.

In a perfect world..... yep!

>>So is the point that it should work differently in PvP?

I agree with the OP's suggestion that this isn't the best direction for implementing a way of getting people to hunt together and have people working with each other.

If that answers you question.

Rifkinn

How does the buff limit expansion play with guild bonuses, are they considered cast others for cap purposes?

Thanks for the speedy response!

Let me give an example of what I'm asking, because I'm not sure I'm right in my assumptions. I play a thief, and have access to urban bonus and supernatural skill buffs.

From my testing I get the impression that the urban bonus acts like a skill buff that's not reported via "exp mods." but that still falls under global caps (as it should, being a skill buff). This currently has the effect of nullifying the effect of the bonus in cases where you can cap your own buff, because these are currently capped at the global cap of 20%.

So what I'm asking is: does the skill buff from urban/confidence/ranger bonus count as a "third party" buff with respect to the new expanded buff limit?