Well that makes Rend pretty much useless to me now except as a prerequisite to Unleash. Oh, well.

---

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>>Shear

Hmm. Dunno on that one. Sounds like a project for when we dig deeper into integrity barriers and dispels.

>>Any chance you can move debilitation to train similar to TM?

I thought it did? I haven't really been in the magic exp code, but that was my understanding of how it works already.

>>Any chance you can have rend/dispel remove cyclics?

I had a proposed spell awhile back for dispelling cyclics, but it ended up creating a larger discussion about the interactions between cyclics and dispels that I'm not sure we ever resolved.

-Raesh

"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise

>>It's based on the success of the contest, not creature level. So if you train the contesting stat, you will stop learning debilitation.

Ahh. TM learning isn't based on creature level either, but skill contest result, you just don't see such a wide variety like you do with stat growth since stat growth is weird.

That ties back into some known issues with Debilitation we've been discussing.

-Raesh

"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise

Sigh. I just heard about Rend being good for training. I'm not even being hyperbolic when I say MM debilitation training is one of the most annoying skills I know of to train in the game, edged out probably only by Thievery. I would rather train Theurgy. Well, I guess I should just turn to sorcery. MM's are metaphysical wrecking balls anyway.

- Saragos

>> Demrris' Resolve scrolls are expensive but worth it. DMRS is also the best debilitation trainer imo. (Unless they divorce mind shout from moonbeams.)

What about viscous solution? And doesn't it depend on your stats? My mentals are too high on my elothean so I think I need to pick up a reflex or fortitude.

This is probably why moon mages hate training debilitation, since our int/wis/disc are usually quite high and the defending stat of the creatures is probably lower. I can't imagine creatures high have willpower saves. Presumably, Their fortitude/reflexes would be a lot higher so it might teach better.

I don't think it's well known that training mentals impedes your debilitation training. Did they remove weighting from SvS stats? I heard it was removed but Epedia doesn't mention it.

I bet Thunderclap would work amazing since it's magic vs. fortitude. I think I might have a few I can test with unleash later tonight.

<<Did they remove weighting from SvS stats? I heard it was removed but Epedia doesn't mention it.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Contested_abilities

Contest Stat "Weighting"
Attack Class	Primary Stat	Secondary Stat	Tertiary Stat
Mind	Intelligence	Discipline	Wisdom
Magic	Wisdom	Intelligence	Discipline
Spirit	Wisdom	Charisma	Intelligence
Charm	Charisma	Discipline	Intelligence
Fear	Charisma	Strength	Discipline
Power	Strength	Discipline	Stamina
Finesse	Agility	Reflex	Intelligence

The defence side of the contest also has weighting but it's less explicitly stated.

Defense Class	Primary Stat	Secondary Stat	Tertiary	Stat Other Conditions
Reflexes	Reflex	Agility	Intelligence	Also affected by incapacitating conditions (prone, webbed, etc).
Fortitude	Stamina	Discipline	Strength	Also affected by vitality, spirit, and fatigue.
Willpower	Discipline	Wisdom	Intelligence	Also affected by nerve damage, stuns/unconsciousness, and Khri Serenity, and Cunning.

I believe the order the stats are listed on the individual contest's page is in the order of weighting, but I haven't confirmed that.

---

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>> I can confirm that Thunderclap is great. I personally prefer Frostbite, which seems to train just as well while still allowing critters to swing at me, while making them hit more weakly from the fatigue hit.

Frostbite is absolutely horrible for me. :( Also it doesn't teach any differently then my mental spells. This guy must just have terrible debil defense.

It knocks everyone on the ground and they don't attack for a good 3 minutes and counting. Maybe I broke them. Its dodge/parry spam + occasional magic. Could be related to the magic casting logic. the bucca doesn't seem to bothered.

---

> cast
You gesture.
Ice crystals begin to form in the air.
A malodorous bucca gasps in shock as its body is completely coated in a layer of frost!
A malodorous bucca collapses to the ground!
A young cave troll gasps in shock as its body is completely coated in a layer of frost!
A young cave troll collapses to the ground!
A young cave troll gasps in shock as its body is completely coated in a layer of frost!
A young cave troll collapses to the ground!
A young cave troll gasps in shock as its body is completely coated in a layer of frost!
A young cave troll collapses to the ground!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

R>
You feel fully rested.
>
The malodorous bucca climbs to its feet.

>
A young cave troll climbs to its feet.

>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You block the first shard with your diamond-hide shield.
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
A young cave troll roars as it leaps to its feet.

>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
>
A young cave troll stands and glances about suspiciously, rubbing its backside.

>
You've gained a new rank in using melee weapons.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
* With pathetic timing, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You block solidly with a diamond-hide shield edged with a tyrium band.
[You're solidly balanced and in better position.]
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
* Awkwardly, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You block solidly with a diamond-hide shield edged with a tyrium band.
[You're solidly balanced and have slight advantage.]
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You manage to get out of the way of the final shard!
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You manage to get out of the way of the final shard!
>
* As if effort and skill were a bad thing, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You dodge.
[You're solidly balanced and in better position.]
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
You are still rather wet, but drying off nicely.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
>
A malodorous bucca spits a glob of black slime into its hands and smoothes out the hair atop its head with a wild giggle.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
A young cave troll bellows in rage.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
>
* Tentatively, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You block solidly with a diamond-hide shield edged with a tyrium band.
[You're solidly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You block the first shard with your diamond-hide shield.
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You manage to get out of the way of the final shard!
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
* Looking as if this were a bad idea, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You block solidly with a diamond-hide shield edged with a tyrium band.
[You're solidly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You manage to get out of the way of the final shard!
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You block the first shard with your diamond-hide shield.
You manage to get out of the way of the final shard!
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
A young cave troll stomps around angrily.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
A young cave troll stomps around angrily.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
* Apparently without direction or thought, a malodorous bucca claws at you. You block solidly with a diamond-hide shield edged with a tyrium band.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent in better position.]
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You block the first shard with your diamond-hide shield.
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
The cave troll moves into a position to dodge.
>
** First physical attack **
* With pathetic timing, a young cave troll feints to the side at you. You dodge, twisting easily away from the blow.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent in better position.]
>
The cave troll moves into a position to parry.
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
>

* Ineptly, a young cave troll bashes a war hammer at you. You evade, jumping to one side.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
>
A young cave troll gestures at you.
A young cave troll stomps the ground heavily with its massive foot as it completes its incantation!
A small stone rock rips itself free of the earth, then splits into two jagged shards and hurtles toward you!
You manage to get out of the way of the first shard!
You block the final shard with your diamond-hide shield.
>
A young cave troll stomps its foot with a loud "THUD!"

>> Where is the complaint here? Yeah, they didn't swing their fists, but were using spells the whole while. Magic casting critters are always strange compared to players. The bucca, which doesn't have spells, went back to swinging at you as soon as it stood up.

Are you serious?

Before frostbite, they swing 24/7 with occasional magic. When you use frostbite they stop swinging altogether and stand there, either casting, or use/dodge parry. As you should probably realize, this makes frostbite unusable since I would literally get 0 exp if I continued to cast frostbite on these creatures.

It depends in the critter too - Malchata for example have been great for me for training, but there are usually enough of them that they are attacking as often as they cast, and I don't think I have ever seen them backfire spells, so it is possible they aren't doing normal magic stuff like critters do where they stand there during spell prep doing nothing, and thus not teaching.


- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

>>tl;dr magic casting critters are dumb and bad for training.

fixed, sadly!

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>These cave trolls have no issues with attacking and casting spells. In fact they are amazing for training, not "dumb" or "bad".

I'll agree that mobs like cave trolls and yellow gremlins are better at actually fighting as they cast spells, but my main issue is that I don't believe magic attacks teach defenses well enough (or sometimes at all) to warrant the extra risk associated with them compared to normal physical attacks. I think special attacks fall under this same umbrella, though.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I'm not sure what's going on with critter magic and critter special attacks (or if I should even mention both in the same sentence), but I've always found it completely out of whack with the critters physical skills. My barbarian for example shifted up to seordmoars, who couldn't touch him by a mile with their physical attacks, but were doing enormous damage with their lightening bolt and landing tingle pretty regularly. My Necromancer couldn't be touched by DP Zealots, but that damn chain attack hit about 50% of the time, making him bleed and fall over with a stun.

The list goes on and on. I can understand that contested spells might be successful when the critter attacks aren't (in some cases anyway, my necro had very high reflex and mentals), but I don't understand why critter TM is so significantly more successful.

>> And their spawn is stupidly good, I'm not sure if they have always spawned like this, or if it was a result of the fixes to the area awhile ago. I have a hunch it has something to do with all the CLIMB/GO exits. They seem to only spawn in the room Im in, which basically means a constant stream of 1-3 trolls. It's hard to tell if they spawn elsewhere because hunt doesn't work with all that climb/go exits.

Did someone fix this? :( YOU ARE ON MY LIST.

>> La'tami have quite a lot of climb exits and as a result that area is terrible to hunt in (no HUNT to them, spawn in other rooms, etc.). The cave trolls might have a totally different spawn setup, just noting that non-cardinal directions can make a hunting area worse.

>> If you had a bad day there, maybe there was another player in a room you didn't see because of the blocked HUNT.

Yeah, I think that's what happened. All that talk and people came to try it out.

There's also 4-5 rooms of them in the Dirge mines.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Special attacks are... special.

---

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>>Seordmaor are pretty crazy with the LB, With my MM I went to hunt them a while back when warklin didn't spawn worth a crap, they landed LB quite to much and did enough nerve damage to make them unhuntable with a magic primary character.

I hunted there for a while with my MM too. The LB was indeed nasty but I managed to tough it out, so I wouldn't call them unhuntable. I think it helped that I switched to armor with high electric protection.

- Navesi