Would the fixes/corrections you made at 4am effect thieves and khri, by chance?

It seems this change has made it a great deal harder to win SVS contests as the caster, to the point of being rather disruptive to the need to affect creatures. I've gone from having an approximately 100% success rate at affecting cabalists with Compel and Innocence at missile range to being only able to succeed most of the time at melee range (and completely unable to succeed at all at missile) with Compel. Innocence just flat-out fails almost always now regardless of engagement range. This is really very drastic and I wouldn't have expected it. I'm already using maximum potency casts and several stat buffs, so there's not much else I can do to stack things in my favor.

Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor

Ah another kick in the teeth to casters. Sounding like being a non magic user gets better and better after every "update".

Can't be dispelled, Check.
Debilitation skill is actually useful, Check.
Primary skill set continues to scale post 1k ranks, Check.
Best SvS barriers and magic resistance for that matter, Check.
Not limited to only being able to cap 2-3 cap spells in pvp without bottoming out on resources, Check.
Abilities don't backfire, Check.

- Erixx

I don't think other at-skill-level things factor stats in when giving exp, right?

It would be weird to feel like you're at an exp advantage (or disadvantage) based on your stats. I don't think I get less exp with my weapons just because I have high agility, for example.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>It would be weird to feel like you're at an exp advantage (or disadvantage) based on your stats. I don't think I get less exp with my weapons just because I have high agility, for example.

Yes, but if your ability to hit relied almost entirely on agility, then having the exp contest take agility into consideration when determining if the target was a challenge would make sense.

ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate

For the people having trouble affecting critters...


What range are you at when casting? Missile has always been harder. You get a bonus at melee.

Can you post an APP CAREFUL showing how your stats compare to the enemy?

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<<What range are you at when casting? Missile has always been harder. You get a bonus at melee.>>

Some of both. Attempting to keep Cabalists at bay with Innocence takes place at missile range as a matter of course. I think it stops trying to stop them once they're finished engaging...it might actually only contest once the start of their advancing, and not try again even if you let them reach melee and then retreat back to missile. I've stopped being able to get rid of them with Compel at missile range, but I'm usually successful with that at melee still. Needing to almost double my mana with NB versus Drakes was at melee range. Basically my before and after comparisons are at the same range.

<<Can you post an APP CAREFUL showing how your stats compare to the enemy?>>

I'm not sure how insightful that'll be since it doesn't really compare, say, my Charisma to their Discipline, but sure. I'll also post my stats, since that probably tells you more. The discipline boost is capped in-sphere, and the intelligence boost is capped out-of-sphere.

---

You are certain that the arthelun cabalist is healthy.
You are certain that the arthelun cabalist has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You are certain that the arthelun cabalist is slightly fatigued.
You are certain that it is rather stronger than you are.
You are certain that it is a great deal more agile than you are.
You are certain that it is about as disciplined as you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat more quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is apparently as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a scuffed and dirty studded metal targe and an iron-banded parry stick with brown leather straps, you are certain that the arthelun cabalist is a difficult opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with your fists, you are certain that the arthelun cabalist is a master that's well beyond your abilities.
If you brawled with the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very well.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very well.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very well.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train very well, provided you can affect it.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many spells.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many abilities.

You are certain that the lava drake is healthy.
You are certain that the lava drake has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You are certain that it is definitely stronger than you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit more agile than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat more quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is apparently as conditioned as you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a scuffed and dirty studded metal targe and a sturdy short hafted halberd, you are certain that the lava drake is a solid opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a sturdy short hafted halberd, you are certain that the lava drake is a master that's well beyond your abilities.
If you attacked with a sturdy short hafted halberd, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.
If you threw the halberd at the enemy you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very well.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very well.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train very well, provided you can affect it.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many spells.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train very well, provided you can affect it.
The drake appears immune to fire.

Strength : 50 + Reflex : 60
Agility : 40 + Charisma : 75
Discipline : 88 + Wisdom : 75
Intelligence : 75 + Stamina : 80 +

Concentration : 456 + Max : 456

Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor

>>Life Sustainer Karthor Drake stuff

Ran in, no mental buffs and zapped a drake with a vs Will and vs Fort, Log below. The next drake I tried took min + 8 on SFs, so there's a fair degree of random on Drake stats to bear in mind. Relevant stats (for my contests), Char 69, Intel/Wis 100.

Cabalists on the other hand took SF + 30 and Halt + 40 to get minimal success. That really excited about moving up here from Intressors.

Samsaren

R> prep sf
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
That won't affect your current attunement very much.

You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Stun Foe spell.
> cas
>
You turn to face a lava drake.
You gesture at a lava drake.
A brilliant stream of pure white light jumps from you to a lava drake, which warps into a spiraling force as it slams into it!
The lava drake is blasted back, reeling backwards in a light daze from the blow!
As the light silently explodes, you could swear you hear a voice whisper the word "Justice".

Roundtime: 2 sec.

You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Halt spell.
> cas

You gesture at a lava drake.
You stare intently at a lava drake, stopping it in its tracks with your gaze.

Roundtime: 2 sec.

R>
The lava drake is motionless, its fiery incandescence dimming like banked coals.
R>
You feel fully rested.
>
A lava drake is able to move again.

<<For the --people having trouble affecting critters...
<<What range are you at when casting? Missile has always been harder. You get a bonus at melee.
<<Can you post an APP CAREFUL showing how your stats compare to the enemy?

For what it's worth, I'm not noticing any noticeable difference at all when using Mind Shout to debilitate adan'f. Granted I'm quite over-powered relative to them with respect to debilitation and stats, so I think I am getting at or near capped durations all of the time. (I'm hanging on in there training my weapons until I have enough to reliably hit the next mob up the ladder or defence/magic training starts to stop, whichever happens first.) Just thought I'd provide a data point that's "working" to check against in case the numbers aren't actually matching up despite seeing expected results.

-Mind Shout prepped at 30 mana without using any harness or cambrinth, which is the minimum amount.
-Almost always at melee range unless the mob has very recently engaged or it puts me over my engagement limit since the spell can't be limited to affect only engaged.
-I get ~20-25 second duration on the stun. Adan'f shadow mages always recover slightly faster than the adan'f blood warriors.
-I never have any relevant stats/skills to this contest buffed. I occasionally have Debilitation debuffed thanks to sorcerous backlashes. (If I buff stats in PvE it is always the REF/AGI version of Invocation of the Spheres that I use, and I don't usually bother to use it with adan'f.)

> info /stat

Your stats:
Strength : 38 Reflex : 73
Agility : 59 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 50 Wisdom : 50
Intelligence : 74 Stamina : 40

> skill debil

SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate fraction
Debilitation: 379 62.67% clear (0/34)

> app warr careful
You are certain that the blood warrior is healthy.
You are certain that the blood warrior is slightly fatigued.
You are certain that it is about as strong as you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat less conditioned than you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a gargoyle-hide targe with a reinforced design and a silver-hued parry stick with reinforced silken straps, you are certain that the blood warrior is a slightly less skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with your fists, you are certain that the blood warrior is a simple opponent.
If you brawled with the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.

> app mage careful
You are certain that the shadow mage is healthy.
You are certain that it is somewhat weaker than you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is quite a bit less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is somewhat less conditioned than you are.
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a gargoyle-hide targe with a reinforced design and a silver-hued parry stick with reinforced silken straps, you are certain that the shadow mage is definitely less skilled.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with your fists, you are certain that the shadow mage is a simple opponent.
If you brawled with the enemy, you are certain that it would train acceptably.
If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train very poorly.
If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.
If you targeted and cast a spell at the enemy, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy, you are certain that it would train somewhat poorly.

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>That's... weird. I'd really rather it work a lot more like TM.

I suppose I'd prefer it, too, but then its no longer much of a stat contest which was the point. (Not 100% that it's a good point)

There are TM "debilitations" (lethargy, PW) but they haven't much been explored.

Might be nice if there were a debil-defense skill (and associated stance allocation?) in the armor skillset, too. Would make mages easier to debilitate but they're also the ones with massive debilitation barriers.

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>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.

Karthor's Appraisal

It's my experience that things in the "Very well" training levels tend to beat the crap out of me, It seems like the GMs are trying to get everything working well at the "adequately" level (that's when I can survive with a few light hits here and there, may leave with 2-3 insignificant wounds). Your appraisals of "if you can affect it" seem spot on with your difficulty in training.


Also, why would ranks not impact Debilitation spells? It seems counter-intuitive to have the skill and not use it in the success calculations.

>>Make debil too reliant on skill and anyone who's magic tertiary can't significantly debilitate anything or anyone at level.

Ehhhh... no more than people who are magic tert can't hit things with TM, or people who are weapon tert can't hit things at level, or people who are survival tert can't dodge things at level, etc.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

To be fair, in our internal conversations about the Barbarian changes I did say, "A Barbarian shouldn't expect to climb the stat wall of a mage in a Willpower contest."

Which is sort of the point of having multiple attacks and defenses: there should always be holes, and there should be strengths.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Make debil too reliant on skill and anyone who's magic tertiary can't significantly debilitate anything or anyone at level.

That's different from any other tertiary skill how?

- Erixx

It's worth remembering that this isn't a new psradigm, primary magic didn't factor into contested spells either. All that changed in 3.0 was how they teach. (Where otherwise you'd have to be dropping max prep debilitation all the time)

Also nevermind elanthipedia, all hail Caaramon.

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>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.

>>Come on, you know that's a bad example. I don't see warmies counting YS among their favorite spells. I wouldn't be sad if I lost 500 ranks in plate tomorrow. Better be damn sure I'd be upset if I lost 500 weapon ranks. Armor != Weapons != Lore != Magic

First, I seem to recall WMs being furious when YS changed.

Second, if you dislike the armor example, fine. In that case, I don't recall getting a to-hit bonus because I'm weapon tertiary.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Ok if debilitation skill is going to influence the cast, what skill will defend against it? I'm all for defending skill being the counter skill.



"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Couldn't it be something like

Debil Skill & PM Modifier vs (2*Top Stat in contest type) + (1*Second stat in contest type) + (0.75*Third Stat in contest type) + (Any modifiers from wards)

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

>>I believe that if you are the best at casting a spell you don't necessary have to be the best at defending from it.

Weapon skill has parry, armor skill has shield and survival skill has evasion, so I'm cool with magic getting something that would be anti-debilitation.

I'd be comfortable with the best defense against debilitation being debilitation because it would reduce the need for a new magic skill and would make it easier to actually train at-level.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I also agree that debilitation ranks should actually matter on all levels. However, in order to do that, something needs to appropriately counter it. So, I'll throw in my suggestions:

* Roll it into defending and make it more useful
* Roll it into tactics and make it more useful
* Create a new lore skill called "Magical Ablation", or maybe just "Ablation"