Stop using logic here Catallus, it doesn't work. You use common sense to prove a point but they try to bat you down with logic. Prove the same point using their new logic, they bat you down with realism. Prove your point with realism and they bat you down with fantasy logic. Prove your point with fantasy logic and they bat you down with the same common sense you began with that already works. It's a viscious cycle they use to confuse a valid point and concern so that they can keep everything the way it is because it fits them best.

Backstab isn't broke, works great.

Backstab defense is highly unlogical and needs to be re-evaluted and revamped.

I dodge, therefore I block

Stabbity, block, you go thud.

Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

Koliasa, your point doesnt work in realism, logic or common sense. If you dont see someone coming you wont instinctively put a shield behind your back in foresight of an attack, its that simple.

<<It's a viscious cycle they use to confuse a valid point and concern so that they can keep everything the way it is because it fits them best.

I'm calling total bull on this. You are the one trying to get something changed because it suits you best. Just because you are a paladin and have much higher shield than any of your defenses I am willing to wager. So you want change backstab defenses because it would best suit your defenses. It would be like me arguing that I won't snipe to check against parry ranks because as a barbarian I have more parry than I have shield and evasion. And don't you think that maybe just maybe you are the one with the wrong stance because just about every single other person who has posted in this thread has argued against what you are saying.

-Berserker Sigmer Heldnhammer-
God Hates A Coward

As I said in one of your other backstab threads (can you say spam?) thieves dont have any skill they can train to block a halt, they have to circle and train stats to counter a skill that a paladin can sit around scripting all day. Cant use a shield to block a halt, why cant I put it infront of my face so you cant stare at me and stop me in my tracks? Of course I am joking because that would be silly, but only as silly as your whole shield growing out of your back thing. If you think it doesnt quite make sense and its all unfair, then maybe its time you went up to bat against all the spells out there that can be dodged but not blocked with a shield.

As for open mindedness, I am not the one who has a set viewpoint and ignores the fact that everyone else disagree's. Sometimes your wrong, sometimes you have to just accept it. I have had differing opinions on many things, but im open minded enough to listen to the arguements and realise when others points make more sense, its a shame you can't.

And finally, what really put the nail in the coffin, you totally shot yourself in the foot by stating why you have this whole grudge against thieves and backstab when you stated you were sick of thieves stealing from you and then backstabbing you when you retaliated. Well sorry but if you initiate PvP because you got stolen from rather than accusing, then you just need to learn to PvP better, since generally any thief you catch you can more than likely halt you shouldnt have a problem beating them. Dont use backstab as an outlet for your inadequacies.

<<<And finally, what really put the nail in the coffin, you totally shot yourself in the foot by stating why you have this whole grudge against thieves and backstab when you stated you were sick of thieves stealing from you>>>

please refer to that post, as I don't recall those words

I have to train my magics, you get your cookies for free, so that's a moot point.

<<Sometimes your wrong, sometimes you have to just accept it. >>>
you're right. You're wrong. Accept it.

I'm sorry that you all think I'm trying to nerf backstab which is not the case ans stated many times. If evasion wasn't checked at all for a "successful backstab" I wouldn't have a single problem with it as it stands. successful backstab not to be confused with an ambush.

Kolaisa

Stabbity, block, you go thud.

Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

<<<You furthermore believe that if you can "evade" you should be able to block with your shield, which you have stated five (5) times since I started counting. This is incorrect, as evasion requires moving only two to four inches, MAYBE, just MAYBE up to SIX WHOPPING INCHES, whereas moving a shield to block a backstab (note the emphasis on back) requires moving the shield not less than eight to ten inches, IF NOT MORE.>>>

stop with this, honestly. just because in that given time you can only move said amount and wouldnt' be quick enough or strong enough to react with a shield. Let me try to be quick enough and I know I'm already strong enough. What you think you can move in said amount of time, I know I am 3 times faster. In others words, whatever time it takes you to move 2 inches, I can move 8 inches. I'm bigger, stronger, and faster.

<<<No intelligent person actually agrees with your "patently absurd" argument (if I may quote myself) that shield should be included in backstab calculations.
Stabbity, block, you go thud.>>>

didn't know you were the authority.

"patently absurd" = patently genius



Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

<< I know I am 3 times faster. In others words, whatever time it takes you to move 2 inches, I can move 8 inches. I'm bigger, stronger, and faster.

The only problem is that you aren't bigger faster and stronger than everyone in the realms. Sure you might be bigger stronger and faster than the average human but all of us as characters are all bigger stronger and faster than the average human.

-Berserker Sigmer Heldnhammer-
God Hates A Coward

<<I have to train my magics, you get your cookies for free, so that's a moot point. >>

no, no matter how many times i use my cookies, i don't get any better at them, they are determined totally by my stats, so i don't get any better at them EXCEPT by training all my other skills.

And if you have spells, you can get better stats thru training because you get TDPs for magic. You don't get tdps by using kookies.

SOunds to me like you just have a grudge against thiefly skills in general. first you attack backstab,now cookies. Get over it. Its pretend money. It's a game. :-)

---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

I was going to say you should just quit while your ahead Koliasa, but judging by the fact that no one supports your views and the fact that people keep catching you out, you might want to just quit and cut your losses. You are completely wrong, its that simple.

I wonder if there is a limit to haw far any given person can shove his foot into his mouth. Because someone seems to be attempting to set a new record . . .

That is all.

--(\/)ordraug the Mage

>>what i meant was that if I a given person was quick enough, strong enough, and fast enough that then should hve every opportunity to block what they are able to dodge if they so desired.

I agree totally, so let's define what that means then. How much more movement do you need to make than the attacker to heave a 200 stone tower shield from your front to your back compared to a blade moving an inch and plunging into your flesh.

I would say total movement is about a straight foot if you did everything right. So ignoring weight, if you have 12x more reflex than they have agility, then you should be able to ATTEMPT to block it. That means that if I could backstab, you'd need right around 500 points in reflex to attempt to block that attack, completely ignoring that my weapon is less than 30 stones and your shield is over 100.

When you get 500 points in reflex, we can start talking about changing the code.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

<<<I agree totally, so let's define what that means then.>>>

I don't know if it should be purely reflex based but that's not my job to decide. But even at xxx number of whatever stats, it should be "possible" to do.

Kolaisa


Stabbity, block, you go thud.

Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

<<I don't know if it should be purely reflex based but that's not my job to decide. But even at xxx number of whatever stats, it should be "possible" to do.>>


sure. same as it should be possible for a thief with 100+ ranks of PM, Harness, targetted magic and devices to cast spells



<skips off>

schvartz



---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

I'm actually pretty sure it is possible. With 150 base points in reflex and 1000 ranks shield I seem to remember someone saying that it's possible.

So I don't think you have to post on it any more Kolaisa, just go out and get that and life will be complete for you.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

<<Nobody's trying to nerf backstab, we just want a viable way to defend against it.>>

How can introducing additional defenses against a premier offensive maneuver not be nerfing?

Gizella

>>Nobody's trying to nerf backstab, we just want a viable way to defend against it.

Last 3 times my friend tried to backstab, I defended agaisnt it just fine. Get yourself more perception, reflex, armor and evasion ranks. If you want to defend against something you have to train the skills that <gasp> defend against it! Not try to manipulate everything to suit your own wants and desires or expect it to change because you lack in the appropriate skills but excel in skills that are not part of the calculations.

I would love shield to block all magic spells so I didnt have to circle and use all my TDPs on training mentals, unfortunately it doesnt work that way. Shield only blocks certain spells, thats a fact I have to live with. Infact with evasion being by far my highest skill, why cant I dodge your attempt to halt me? Because! Yet again rather than complain, I just train the stats to combat it rather than whine about how unfair it is and expect calculations to be changed to accommodate me.

What people fail to understand is the high difficulty of pulling off a successful backstab. There is a skill check for them hiding on you, a skill check against their stalking for them advancing on you, a skill check for them successfully backstabbing you or thrusting then another check against their weapon skill. If any one of these skills is low, it will result in failure. If someone has trained all 4 of those skills above your perception and evasion, then you have a nerve complaining about the power of backstab. I also guarantee you, that despite your completely exagerated claim, I can not backstab someone with double my skills, not even close.

>>again, you're bringing up magic. Let's keep to the topic on hand

Oh the irony! And again your being a complete hypocrite, or did you forget that you originally brought up magic in this topic. Let me refresh your memory:

>I have to train my magics, you get your cookies for free, so that's a moot point ~post 451


>>Let's keep to the topic on hand which is now the 3 viable ways to defend a backstab that could be used.

Perception, evasion and reflex. If you dont want to be backstabbed, dont conflict with thieves. If you want to defend against backstab, train the skills that are required to do so! Shield isnt one of them, sorry.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=14&message=447

Think you should just go back and re-read this post Koliasa, because it seems it totally summed you up. You appear to want to change someone elses ability so it suits your training style better. DR doesnt work like that, you have to train the appropriate skills to counteract the abilities, spells, attacks rather than expecting them all to be altered to suit how your skills are setup. Accept it and move on.

>>>you got the wrong post. :), reply the right one and ill reread

I'm pretty sure he nailed actually.

---

Blue Fire

She, and no I didnt get the wrong post. I picked the post that summed you up perfectly. It was posted by '-Berserker Sigmer Heldnhammer-'

You REALLY REALLY should give up, you are making a fool of yourself. So how about you now go re-read that post that I already once told you summed you up completely and just gracefully bow out rather than continue to argue that a silver is worth more than a gold just because you have a silver in your pocket.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=14&message=447

Theres the link again, wouldnt want you getting lost and confused AGAIN.