I'm not even sure if this is plausible - if it could be done without undue burden - but I had an idea for an addition to the PREP command.
PREP <spell> MAXIMUM - Prepares a spell at the highest mana you're capable of casting it with, using the exact same calculations as DISCERN.
If this is something that could be done, then it'd be nice to see also...
PREP <spell> QUARTER - Prepares at top mana / 4.
PREP <spell> THIRD - Prepares at top mana / 3.
PREP <spell> HALF - Prepares at top mana /2.
I
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KUYKEND9
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 10:21 AM CDT
Great idea, but I think max casting is a probability of success.
KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 10:34 AM CDT
>> Great idea, but I think max casting is a probability of success.
I have literally no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate and/or rephrase?
I
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R>
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I have literally no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate and/or rephrase?
I
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UFTIM
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 10:59 AM CDT
>> I have literally no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate and/or rephrase?
IIRC, the value given in discern is the mana you have a 50% chance of being able to cast. So PREP <spell> MAX would backfire half the time.
IIRC, the value given in discern is the mana you have a 50% chance of being able to cast. So PREP <spell> MAX would backfire half the time.
ZETHIN01095
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 11:00 AM CDT
He's saying your max spell prep is variable. Like there's a little bit of randomness into how much mana you can shove in so sometimes it might be 30, 31, 32, ect. even with everything else equal.
ASHAMAN1
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 12:27 PM CDT
While the idea strikes me as being interesting, bear in mind as your skill grows the viability of this command would tank rapidly as straight casting high prep spells is insanely taxing (or impossible) on your mana resources. Energy would be better spent, player side, in getting used to the mana conservation tools available to us.
You reach out with your senses and see shining (13/21) streams of golden Holy mana radiating through the area. Flecks of black drift slowly through the mana streams.
Letting your senses extend further, you feel there is glowing (11/21) mana to the northwest, and glowing (11/21) mana to the west.
You remember a way to combine the weaves of the Spring symbiosis with another spell.
You have not exhausted your ability to smite your foes at all.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
HR> prep c 100
H>
That will disrupt most of your current attunement!
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Courage spell.
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
H> cast
mana
You reveal yourself.
You gesture.
You feel your courage bolstered by your faith and determination.
>
You are quite adept at harnessing mana.
You currently have a pathetically low strength attunement to the streams of mana.
You are holding no mana in localized streams around you.
Attunement: [0%>>>|________________50%_____________________100%]
You are receiving full harness messages (HARNESS VERBOSE is set).
Keep in mind, I have enough magic skill that casting courage at 100 mana taught nothing and I'm left with shreds.
Samsaren
You reach out with your senses and see shining (13/21) streams of golden Holy mana radiating through the area. Flecks of black drift slowly through the mana streams.
Letting your senses extend further, you feel there is glowing (11/21) mana to the northwest, and glowing (11/21) mana to the west.
You remember a way to combine the weaves of the Spring symbiosis with another spell.
You have not exhausted your ability to smite your foes at all.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
HR> prep c 100
H>
That will disrupt most of your current attunement!
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Courage spell.
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
H> cast
mana
You reveal yourself.
You gesture.
You feel your courage bolstered by your faith and determination.
>
You are quite adept at harnessing mana.
You currently have a pathetically low strength attunement to the streams of mana.
You are holding no mana in localized streams around you.
Attunement: [0%>>>|________________50%_____________________100%]
You are receiving full harness messages (HARNESS VERBOSE is set).
Keep in mind, I have enough magic skill that casting courage at 100 mana taught nothing and I'm left with shreds.
Samsaren
KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 02:21 PM CDT
>>>> IIRC, the value given in discern is the mana you have a 50% chance of being able to cast. So PREP <spell> MAX would backfire half the time.
Oh, really? I backfire full-prep, max-prep spells exactly never. Might be that my magics are "low" in the mid 160s, though. Either way, it would make at least the PREP <spell> HALF option useful.
>> He's saying your max spell prep is variable. Like there's a little bit of randomness into how much mana you can shove in so sometimes it might be 30, 31, 32, ect. even with everything else equal.
I don't notice any variation in the numbers I get from DISCERN, and that's what I'm talking about here. Take the calculation that gives you a specific number in DISCERN, and apply it to PREP <spell> MAX.
>> While the idea strikes me as being interesting, bear in mind as your skill grows the viability of this command would tank rapidly as straight casting high prep spells is insanely taxing (or impossible) on your mana resources.
Well, I'm not suggesting that casting at maximum mana becomes somehow mandatory, so if you don't want to use or can't it, don't. Also, the QUARTER, THIRD, and HALF options would, I imagine, still be rather useful at high level.
I
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Oh, really? I backfire full-prep, max-prep spells exactly never. Might be that my magics are "low" in the mid 160s, though. Either way, it would make at least the PREP <spell> HALF option useful.
>> He's saying your max spell prep is variable. Like there's a little bit of randomness into how much mana you can shove in so sometimes it might be 30, 31, 32, ect. even with everything else equal.
I don't notice any variation in the numbers I get from DISCERN, and that's what I'm talking about here. Take the calculation that gives you a specific number in DISCERN, and apply it to PREP <spell> MAX.
>> While the idea strikes me as being interesting, bear in mind as your skill grows the viability of this command would tank rapidly as straight casting high prep spells is insanely taxing (or impossible) on your mana resources.
Well, I'm not suggesting that casting at maximum mana becomes somehow mandatory, so if you don't want to use or can't it, don't. Also, the QUARTER, THIRD, and HALF options would, I imagine, still be rather useful at high level.
I
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Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
DR-RAESH
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 03:06 PM CDT
Discern is an estimate. It is not, by any means, a guarantee.
Your success can be modified by any number out factors for any given cast (most commonly prep time, concentration/fatigue/vitality, nerve damage, skill/stat buff/debuffs, etc.)
The end result is what you're asking for would come at a fairly large cost of system resources (Since we'd basically have to parse the entire cast side of the equation when you prepped, and then again when you cast) and wouldn't actually be a very satisfying result.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Your success can be modified by any number out factors for any given cast (most commonly prep time, concentration/fatigue/vitality, nerve damage, skill/stat buff/debuffs, etc.)
The end result is what you're asking for would come at a fairly large cost of system resources (Since we'd basically have to parse the entire cast side of the equation when you prepped, and then again when you cast) and wouldn't actually be a very satisfying result.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 03:22 PM CDT
>> The end result is what you're asking for would come at a fairly large cost of system resources
Yeah, that was my primary concern. Thanks for considering it though!
I
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Yeah, that was my primary concern. Thanks for considering it though!
I
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ISHARON
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 04:26 PM CDT
>>Kuykend9: PREP <spell> MAXIMUM - Prepares a spell at the highest mana you're capable of casting it with, using the exact same calculations as DISCERN.
Obligatory "Genie can do that" (with global variables).
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Obligatory "Genie can do that" (with global variables).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/27/2015 04:34 PM CDT
>> Obligatory "Genie can do that" (with global variables).
My assumption is usually that Genie can do things, but I have a particular reason why I choose not to use the program, despite how awesome I know that it is.
I
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My assumption is usually that Genie can do things, but I have a particular reason why I choose not to use the program, despite how awesome I know that it is.
I
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JHALIASCLERIC
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 11:11 AM CDT
>Oh, really? I backfire full-prep, max-prep spells exactly never. Might be that my magics are "low" in the mid 160s, though. Either way, it would make at least the PREP <spell> HALF option useful.
You will. For example, around 170 or so, I would start trying to cast esoterics, and succeed ~half the time. I like the idea, but I think it needs a bit of tweaking.
OLSONM6
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 11:16 AM CDT
I usually cast at my discern mana -5 and even then still backfire on full preps occasionally. I think it has to do with inefficiencies/difficulty of using cambrinth or harnessed mana vs. straight preps, maybe?
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KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 11:19 AM CDT
>> I like the idea, but I think it needs a bit of tweaking.
Tweaking or no, Raesh confirmed my suspicion, which is that the mechanics which calculate the numbers represented in DISCERN would, if used in this manner, result in "a fairly large cost of system resources."
I
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Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
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Tweaking or no, Raesh confirmed my suspicion, which is that the mechanics which calculate the numbers represented in DISCERN would, if used in this manner, result in "a fairly large cost of system resources."
I
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NINEVAH1
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 02:23 PM CDT
>>I usually cast at my discern mana -5 and even then still backfire on full preps occasionally.
This is my experience, also.
This is my experience, also.
DR-RAESH
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 03:21 PM CDT
>>Tweaking or no, Raesh confirmed my suspicion, which is that the mechanics which calculate the numbers represented in DISCERN would, if used in this manner, result in "a fairly large cost of system resources."
While that's important, the other half is equally important - or more so - that the discern mechanics don't factor in non-ideal circumstances.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
While that's important, the other half is equally important - or more so - that the discern mechanics don't factor in non-ideal circumstances.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 04:07 PM CDT
It would be neat if you could set the default prep per spell though. Though to be fair maybey not worth the trouble...
OLSONM6
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 04:44 PM CDT
>It would be neat if you could set the default prep per spell though. Though to be fair maybe not worth the trouble...
You can do this in a script in 2 minutes.
.cast %1
if %1==es goto es
if %1==suf go to suf
...
es:
setvariable mana 40
goto cast
suf:
setvariable mana 20
goto cast
cast:
put prep %1 %mana
waitfor fully prepared
put cast
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You can do this in a script in 2 minutes.
.cast %1
if %1==es goto es
if %1==suf go to suf
...
es:
setvariable mana 40
goto cast
suf:
setvariable mana 20
goto cast
cast:
put prep %1 %mana
waitfor fully prepared
put cast
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KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/28/2015 07:48 PM CDT
>> You can do this in a script in 2 minutes.
Alternately...
.mana
if_2 goto SetMana
echo * * * Syntax: .mana <spell abbreviation> <default mana>
exit
SetMana:
setVariable %1 %1 %2
After building/using this script, for example to set drum to 26 mana, you could then enter into SF...
>prep %drum
... and the game would convert that to...
>prep drum 26
This is what I have been using to accomplish what I wanted, but what I was going for with the suggestion was a command that would, without having to DISCERN or set a variable, prepare a spell at the top mana of which I'm capable based on stats/skills. I understand that it doesn't take into account non-ideal circumstances, and I don't mind that at all, because obviously it wouldn't be used when under non-ideal circumstances; its use would be for times when you know that you're at the top of your game and want to cast a spell at the top mana you possibly can. Because I understood that not everyone would want to cast their spells at top mana all the time, I suggested the QUARTER, THIRD, and HALF options. I suppose TWOTHIRD and THREEQUARTER options might have also been cool. But I suspected that calculations DISCERN performed were probably a little taxing.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
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Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
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Alternately...
.mana
if_2 goto SetMana
echo * * * Syntax: .mana <spell abbreviation> <default mana>
exit
SetMana:
setVariable %1 %1 %2
After building/using this script, for example to set drum to 26 mana, you could then enter into SF...
>prep %drum
... and the game would convert that to...
>prep drum 26
This is what I have been using to accomplish what I wanted, but what I was going for with the suggestion was a command that would, without having to DISCERN or set a variable, prepare a spell at the top mana of which I'm capable based on stats/skills. I understand that it doesn't take into account non-ideal circumstances, and I don't mind that at all, because obviously it wouldn't be used when under non-ideal circumstances; its use would be for times when you know that you're at the top of your game and want to cast a spell at the top mana you possibly can. Because I understood that not everyone would want to cast their spells at top mana all the time, I suggested the QUARTER, THIRD, and HALF options. I suppose TWOTHIRD and THREEQUARTER options might have also been cool. But I suspected that calculations DISCERN performed were probably a little taxing.
I
Kneebiter Zhunee just arrived.
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Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
BRYCOLE83
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/29/2015 03:31 PM CDT
I don't know if this is relevant here, but it might be possible to get a base line for prep numbers from elanthipedia entries. I was toying with this the other day and might take a look to see if its viable.
For example if min skill level is 80, max skill level is 500. Min mana is 5, and max mana is 50. You can possible use the ratio of current skill to maximum skill to obtain mana levels.
Obfuscation is 0/101 max prep. with 0/520 skill. Theoretically it should take 520 skill to use 101 max prep spell. So if you have 100 skill, thats 19.23% of 520.
19.23% of 101 = 19.4223 mana.
I'm not sure if stormfront does basic math, but i imagine this could get you to nice round number.
** I didn't test any of these numbers or formulas. There could be a variety of other factors involved.
For example if min skill level is 80, max skill level is 500. Min mana is 5, and max mana is 50. You can possible use the ratio of current skill to maximum skill to obtain mana levels.
Obfuscation is 0/101 max prep. with 0/520 skill. Theoretically it should take 520 skill to use 101 max prep spell. So if you have 100 skill, thats 19.23% of 520.
19.23% of 101 = 19.4223 mana.
I'm not sure if stormfront does basic math, but i imagine this could get you to nice round number.
** I didn't test any of these numbers or formulas. There could be a variety of other factors involved.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/29/2015 04:02 PM CDT
I think that's probably a good approximation, but I wager PM, Attunement, and stats affect things as well.
My necro has 540 aug, DISCERN tells me I can stuff 87 mana into REI (basic spell).
So by your metric, ReI is 70/780 skill for 17/100 mana - Huh, pretty accurate.
KUYKEND9
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/29/2015 05:24 PM CDT
Interesting notion. Here's some basic test numbers to see how accurate the base assumptions are. (I'm testing as I type, so no bias here.)
Elemental Magic: 164
Attunement: 166
Augmentation: 148
Utility: 150
WOTM: Mana; 5-100 Skill; 0-600
AOT: Mana; 1-100 Skill; 0-600
So, assuming that [Primary] Magic and the related skill to the spell weigh equally (which they very well may not, and also may not be the only contributing factors), that would mean that with 164 Magic and 148 Augmentation, I would get the following...
[(164 + 148) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 26 mana
However, my DISCERN tells me that I can actually cast it at 33 mana. Still, we have a good starting point. Continuing with the [probably flawed] assumption that these - Magic and Augmentation - are the only two factors that matter, we can suppose that one is weighted greater than the other, and add variables and the end result we know to be true, and get...
[(164x + 148y) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 33 mana
Solving to isolate x and y, we arrive at...
164x + 148y = 396
Looking at the graph, I notice that the function passes very close to (1.5, 1) and (1, 1.5), so I'll store these values for later. I suspect that the former is more likely, so I'm going to use that to calculate the next spell...
[(164 * 1.5 + 150) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 33 mana
Meanwhile, my actual DISCERN value is 30. Again, the math is off, and at this point I'm suspecting that it relates to some z-factor in the spells themselves. I'm also home now and tired, so if anyone else wants to pick up the math and keep running, have at it.
I
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Elemental Magic: 164
Attunement: 166
Augmentation: 148
Utility: 150
WOTM: Mana; 5-100 Skill; 0-600
AOT: Mana; 1-100 Skill; 0-600
So, assuming that [Primary] Magic and the related skill to the spell weigh equally (which they very well may not, and also may not be the only contributing factors), that would mean that with 164 Magic and 148 Augmentation, I would get the following...
[(164 + 148) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 26 mana
However, my DISCERN tells me that I can actually cast it at 33 mana. Still, we have a good starting point. Continuing with the [probably flawed] assumption that these - Magic and Augmentation - are the only two factors that matter, we can suppose that one is weighted greater than the other, and add variables and the end result we know to be true, and get...
[(164x + 148y) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 33 mana
Solving to isolate x and y, we arrive at...
164x + 148y = 396
Looking at the graph, I notice that the function passes very close to (1.5, 1) and (1, 1.5), so I'll store these values for later. I suspect that the former is more likely, so I'm going to use that to calculate the next spell...
[(164 * 1.5 + 150) / 2] * (100 / 600) = 33 mana
Meanwhile, my actual DISCERN value is 30. Again, the math is off, and at this point I'm suspecting that it relates to some z-factor in the spells themselves. I'm also home now and tired, so if anyone else wants to pick up the math and keep running, have at it.
I
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Zhunee glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."
R>
Kneebiter Zhunee runs west.
BRYCOLE83
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/30/2015 02:15 PM CDT
I'm thinking you might need to adjust the curve based on the min/max of the mana. The curve may also adjust depending on the difficulty of the spell. We also might not even need to do any fancy formulas and simply assign a spell factor (mana / skill ratio) variable to every spell difficulty category.
For example if you are finding that 30 mana is a good spot for AOT with (150+164), you could simply divide by the mana used and get a spell factor that you may be able to apply to other similar difficulty spells. So in this example (150+164)/ 2 / 30 = 5.233. Now, as your skill adjusts you can divide your skill number by the spell factor to find the new mana level.
So at 300 skill your mana level would be 300/5.233 = 38.22. Of course this falls apart at 600 skill (max) and we end up with 600/5.233 = 114 mana where 100 is the max mana.
So then I was thinking well, why not just use max mana / max skill as the variable. That gives a spell factor of 6 which places us at 25 mana for both WOTM and AOT. So maybe spellfactor of 6 + 5 to the end result. That could work for awhile until you hit 95 skill and then you would be capping out the spell too early. Maybe the "5" is on some sort of diminishing returns.
So, there must definitely be a curve in place somewhere that accelerates or decelerates the amount of mana we can place into the spell based on difficulty which makes me think we might not ever be able to find an accurate single number formula.
Of course I don't know any fancy maths and just going based on algebra. :)
I'm also not entirely sure that a "precise" formula is worthwhile because even at a precise number, you will likely always have a chance of backfiring. So my idea of a "good" number is one where the spell is high enough to learn but low enough to not backfire.
BRYCOLE83
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/30/2015 02:34 PM CDT
>> My necro has 540 aug, DISCERN tells me I can stuff 87 mana into REI (basic spell).
>> So by your metric, ReI is 70/780 skill for 17/100 mana - Huh, pretty accurate.
Hmm, so 540/780 = .6923 * 100 (top mana) = 69.23 mana + 17 (min prep) = 87 mana.
Could be a coincidence!
Let's see...
Shear- 30 / 103 Mana. 260/1000 skill.
Discern = 102 mana with 847 warding & 990 lunar magic.
847 (warding) / 1000 = .847 * 103 = 87.241 mana + 30 (min prep) = 117 mana.
990 (lunar) / 1000 = .99 * 103 = 102 mana (no min prep added)
Shadow servant- 33 / 105 mana 230/980 skill.
Discern = 105 mana with 939 utility & 990 lunar magic.
939 (utility) / 980 = .9581 * 105 = 100.60 mana + 33 (min prep) = 133 mana.
990 (lunar) / 980 = 1 * 105 = 105 mana (no min prep added)
This is starting to make me question what effect the subskills play in placing mana into spells. It also makes me question how accurate the elanthipedia numbers are. According to epedia. I shouldn't be able to cap either of those spells. I guess it's not entirely smart to be using those numbers to base factors off. Do we know how they were obtained?
ABSOLON
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/30/2015 04:41 PM CDT
<<This is starting to make me question what effect the subskills play in placing mana into spells.
It's a function of your relevant magic skill (Augmentation, Debilitation, Targeted Magic, Utility, and/or Warding) modified fairly strongly by your Primary Magic (or Sorcery instead if casting outside of your mana type.) Other factors can come into play as well, such as Rangers and wilderness level.
<<It also makes me question how accurate the elanthipedia numbers are. According to epedia. I shouldn't be able to cap either of those spells. I guess it's not entirely smart to be using those numbers to base factors off. Do we know how they were obtained?
The numbers on the wiki are the effective value required to cast at minimum and to cap a spell taking into account the PM/Sorcery modification. They are pulled directly from DISCERN's in-game output, with the caveat that they are translated from the RP experience value to actual numbers. Typically, most people need around 20% or so less skill in the relevant skill since their PM covers the rest. Your mileage will vary based on how much your PM out-classes the other skill.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
It's a function of your relevant magic skill (Augmentation, Debilitation, Targeted Magic, Utility, and/or Warding) modified fairly strongly by your Primary Magic (or Sorcery instead if casting outside of your mana type.) Other factors can come into play as well, such as Rangers and wilderness level.
<<It also makes me question how accurate the elanthipedia numbers are. According to epedia. I shouldn't be able to cap either of those spells. I guess it's not entirely smart to be using those numbers to base factors off. Do we know how they were obtained?
The numbers on the wiki are the effective value required to cast at minimum and to cap a spell taking into account the PM/Sorcery modification. They are pulled directly from DISCERN's in-game output, with the caveat that they are translated from the RP experience value to actual numbers. Typically, most people need around 20% or so less skill in the relevant skill since their PM covers the rest. Your mileage will vary based on how much your PM out-classes the other skill.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/30/2015 04:42 PM CDT
>It's a function of your relevant magic skill (Augmentation, Debilitation, Targeted Magic, Utility, and/or Warding) modified fairly strongly by your Primary Magic (or Sorcery instead if casting outside of your mana type.) Other factors can come into play as well, such as Rangers and wilderness level.
Mentals too?
ABSOLON
Re: PREP <spell> MAX
06/30/2015 04:47 PM CDT
<<Mentals too?
I can't 100% say no, but I'm pretty sure this is not the case. They might help with getting off a spell before full prep without backfiring... but that's just speculation on my part and skill would be the much greater factor regardless.
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I can't 100% say no, but I'm pretty sure this is not the case. They might help with getting off a spell before full prep without backfiring... but that's just speculation on my part and skill would be the much greater factor regardless.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
