I'm looking for general feedback on the SvS system (And not so much for specific spells right now) and how it feels to players.
How does it feel for PvE?
How about PvP?
Does it break down at certain levels?
Does it feel like certain types of contests are underutilized or overutilized?
Does pumping extra mana into these spells seem useful?
Do we need more kinds of SvS contests? If so, what should the be?
Those are just topic starters, feel free to explore others.
Two things we've already discussed doing to improve the SvS experience are slashing mana costs (For debilitation spells as a whole actually) and introducing an RNG component to make SvS less binary. (Yes, SvS currently lacks this - it's purely math which makes it very predictable which can be both a good thing and a bad thing for game balance and the play experience).
Thanks,
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
CLERIXHAX
Re: SvS Feedback
08/15/2014 10:56 PM CDT
>How does it feel for PvE?
It feels good for PvE, since duration and potency scale based on mana usage using it with minimal mana won't make as big of an impact as using maximum amounts of mana.
>How about PvP?
SvS is in favor of the attacker, unless you severely outclass your opponent you won't be fully resisting an onslaught. How it feels depends on the lense you're looking at it with. For an attacker, it feels fine. Of course, if I get hit with disablers against myself when I know I have better stats it can be irritating.
>Does it break down at certain levels?
Certain abilities seem significantly easier to land then others. I wouldn't necessarily call it breaking down at a specific level (unless you ask Raikage about Halo). It feels more complete when you have a wider stat spread and the ability to cap the spell.
>Does it feel like certain types of contests are underutilized or overutilized?
I don't feel so, personally i'll use all of the SvS I have available. There's always going to be a core spell though that's initially used as your primary disabler.
>Does pumping extra mana into these spells seem useful?
Very much so, every spell I use in SvS is capped. You won't get capped duration/potency without it IIRC.
>Do we need more kinds of SvS contests? If so, what should the be?
No, there's plenty of them as it is.
>Two things we've already discussed doing to improve the SvS experience are slashing mana costs (For debilitation spells as a whole actually) and introducing an RNG component to make SvS less binary. (Yes, SvS currently lacks this - it's purely math which makes it very predictable which can be both a good thing and a bad thing for game balance and the play experience).
I'm interested in hearing more about your RNG component. What will the RNG component dictate? Complete Success/Failure? Potency? Duration?
It feels good for PvE, since duration and potency scale based on mana usage using it with minimal mana won't make as big of an impact as using maximum amounts of mana.
>How about PvP?
SvS is in favor of the attacker, unless you severely outclass your opponent you won't be fully resisting an onslaught. How it feels depends on the lense you're looking at it with. For an attacker, it feels fine. Of course, if I get hit with disablers against myself when I know I have better stats it can be irritating.
>Does it break down at certain levels?
Certain abilities seem significantly easier to land then others. I wouldn't necessarily call it breaking down at a specific level (unless you ask Raikage about Halo). It feels more complete when you have a wider stat spread and the ability to cap the spell.
>Does it feel like certain types of contests are underutilized or overutilized?
I don't feel so, personally i'll use all of the SvS I have available. There's always going to be a core spell though that's initially used as your primary disabler.
>Does pumping extra mana into these spells seem useful?
Very much so, every spell I use in SvS is capped. You won't get capped duration/potency without it IIRC.
>Do we need more kinds of SvS contests? If so, what should the be?
No, there's plenty of them as it is.
>Two things we've already discussed doing to improve the SvS experience are slashing mana costs (For debilitation spells as a whole actually) and introducing an RNG component to make SvS less binary. (Yes, SvS currently lacks this - it's purely math which makes it very predictable which can be both a good thing and a bad thing for game balance and the play experience).
I'm interested in hearing more about your RNG component. What will the RNG component dictate? Complete Success/Failure? Potency? Duration?
DR-RAESH
Re: SvS Feedback
08/15/2014 11:34 PM CDT
>>I'm interested in hearing more about your RNG component. What will the RNG component dictate? Complete Success/Failure? Potency? Duration?
We haven't really gotten that far in the discussion. The logic for SvS is a little funky. Basically it does a binary pass/fail check, and then if you pass it the results tier to some degree with level of success (This is generally done on a spell by spell basis so it's hard to make sweeping statements about the impact here).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
We haven't really gotten that far in the discussion. The logic for SvS is a little funky. Basically it does a binary pass/fail check, and then if you pass it the results tier to some degree with level of success (This is generally done on a spell by spell basis so it's hard to make sweeping statements about the impact here).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
NINEVAH1
Re: SvS Feedback
08/16/2014 07:44 AM CDT
Agree with everything clerichax said.
>>SvS is in favor of the attacker, unless you severely outclass your opponent you won't be fully resisting an onslaught. How it feels depends on the lense you're looking at it with. For an attacker, it feels fine. Of course, if I get hit with disablers against myself when I know I have better stats it can be irritating.
This is what I find most annoying with SVS contests in PvP. There are a few spells that are almost impossible to resist regardless of stat differences because of weighting towards the attacker.
I welcome the RNG.
>>SvS is in favor of the attacker, unless you severely outclass your opponent you won't be fully resisting an onslaught. How it feels depends on the lense you're looking at it with. For an attacker, it feels fine. Of course, if I get hit with disablers against myself when I know I have better stats it can be irritating.
This is what I find most annoying with SVS contests in PvP. There are a few spells that are almost impossible to resist regardless of stat differences because of weighting towards the attacker.
I welcome the RNG.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: SvS Feedback
08/16/2014 10:52 PM CDT
>>>> How does it feel for PvE?
SvS seem to work fine in PvE.
>>>> Does it break down at certain levels?
The only thing I have noticed is that at low levels (and therefore low mana) the durations can be quite short and I often end up feeling like I am casting SvS spells to train debilitation rather than do anything useful.
>>>> Does pumping extra mana into these spells seem useful?
Based on the above, yes.
>>>> Do we need more kinds of SvS contests? If so, what should the be?
It would be nice if Charisma was included as a stat in more SvS contests. It would make me feel that training the stat had some purpose other than helping me create a set of uber-bones.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: SvS Feedback
08/16/2014 11:06 PM CDT
>>It would be nice if Charisma was included as a stat in more SvS contests.
This is just what I was going to say. At the very least I'd like to see it involved in defense a bit more.
-- Player of Eyuve
This is just what I was going to say. At the very least I'd like to see it involved in defense a bit more.
-- Player of Eyuve
ABSOLON
Re: SvS Feedback
08/16/2014 11:07 PM CDT
<<The only thing I have noticed is that at low levels (and therefore low mana) the durations can be quite short and I often end up feeling like I am casting SvS spells to train debilitation rather than do anything useful.
The flip side of this is that those SvS abilities with longer durations are not as good at teaching Debilitation currently, since repeated casts in most cases do not teach until the previous effect wears off. See Burden for an extreme example of a poor Debilitation teacher.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
The flip side of this is that those SvS abilities with longer durations are not as good at teaching Debilitation currently, since repeated casts in most cases do not teach until the previous effect wears off. See Burden for an extreme example of a poor Debilitation teacher.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
BADGOPHER
Re: SvS Feedback
08/17/2014 08:07 AM CDT
Agreed. Burden's a waste. If all debilitation spells were made replacable, it would be ok, I think.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
Re: SvS Feedback
08/17/2014 05:22 PM CDT
> I'm looking for general feedback on the SvS system (And not so much for specific spells right now) and how it feels to players.
The min to max success scales for SvS on spells are very inconsistent and badly setup. Some spells give you the desired and most potent effects on a minimal success, making these spells far too easy to utilize over other SvS. Halo is an example of this, with even a slight tiny little success of any kind you send the person sailing out of melee with a good stun. Since the pushback and stun are the ONLY desired effects of halo, i would say halo has no success scale to speak of, since the min and max success are virtually the same in a players eyes. There are many spells that follow this idea, and/or the SvS scale is either too hard, or too easy.
The min to max success scales for SvS on spells are very inconsistent and badly setup. Some spells give you the desired and most potent effects on a minimal success, making these spells far too easy to utilize over other SvS. Halo is an example of this, with even a slight tiny little success of any kind you send the person sailing out of melee with a good stun. Since the pushback and stun are the ONLY desired effects of halo, i would say halo has no success scale to speak of, since the min and max success are virtually the same in a players eyes. There are many spells that follow this idea, and/or the SvS scale is either too hard, or too easy.
BADGOPHER
Re: SvS Feedback
08/17/2014 08:11 PM CDT
Just out of curiosity, should this include thief/barb abilities, since they don't-but-do use magic and SvS contests? Or did I miss that in the initial post? It's be a long, long, week.
DR-RAESH
Re: SvS Feedback
08/17/2014 09:43 PM CDT
Eh. Sorta.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TEVESHSZAT
Re: SvS Feedback
08/19/2014 01:16 PM CDT
>>Does pumping extra mana into these spells seem useful?
For the ones I use (HP/PV), not particularly. If I was using VoD a lot, I'd probably cast higher since that's a more traditional debuff.
Would I get a longer duration with PV if I pumped more mana into it? Probably, but I don't think the immobilization from a capped PV is worth the effort put into it. Granted, I know that immobilization/stun/etc are meant to be short debuffs, and I'm not disputing that, but I think that means the range of what a good PV does is rather limited.
I also never personally noticed that big of a difference between a big and small HP. Didn't do any deep research into this, so it's all very generalized observation. My other issue with HP is that the main time I'd want to use it was against boss mobs, and it seems like the boss mechanic that greatly reduces damage so the mob lasts longer ruins the effectiveness of HP. Light hits before HP, light hits after HP.
Plus, most of the time if I'm training debilitation, it's better for me to chain off a bunch of minimum preps to get the skill moving instead of casting a big one that lasts a long time. The at-level exp vastly outclasses the casting-at-cap exp bump at-level-combat magic gets (this goes for TM, as well).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
For the ones I use (HP/PV), not particularly. If I was using VoD a lot, I'd probably cast higher since that's a more traditional debuff.
Would I get a longer duration with PV if I pumped more mana into it? Probably, but I don't think the immobilization from a capped PV is worth the effort put into it. Granted, I know that immobilization/stun/etc are meant to be short debuffs, and I'm not disputing that, but I think that means the range of what a good PV does is rather limited.
I also never personally noticed that big of a difference between a big and small HP. Didn't do any deep research into this, so it's all very generalized observation. My other issue with HP is that the main time I'd want to use it was against boss mobs, and it seems like the boss mechanic that greatly reduces damage so the mob lasts longer ruins the effectiveness of HP. Light hits before HP, light hits after HP.
Plus, most of the time if I'm training debilitation, it's better for me to chain off a bunch of minimum preps to get the skill moving instead of casting a big one that lasts a long time. The at-level exp vastly outclasses the casting-at-cap exp bump at-level-combat magic gets (this goes for TM, as well).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
