Sorry if this has been addressed and I overlooked it, but...
A few weeks ago, I was conversing with a GM regarding a few bugs [etc.] and I'd asked if Sorcery impacts the rate of Backlash, or merely allows more mana to be fed into the spell without getting the everyday backfire. The response I got was that it does indeed lower Backlash rates and that, with enough skill, the risk of more tricky spells would slowly go away. (It was also mentioned that Backlash rate is on a per-spell basis, and varies widely.)
The problem I see, however, is that this is either untrue, or any reduction that exists caps off far too soon - the backlash rate for 300 sorcery isn't any different than 1500 sorcery. I was curious to if this was intended or a glitch, as it makes a very wide number of spells extremely difficult to have any practical use. I can understand that casting ANYTHING easily would be too broken, but as is, most spells blow off limbs between 20~30% and turns the concept of a Sorcerer into a bit of a joke. If casting 'sorcery' is so absurdly lopsided, won't casting 'Sorcery' be flat-out impossible, comparably?
Please disregard this if it's a bug, but really thought I'd ask about it.
STILVA
MOCKERJB
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/26/2013 03:58 PM CDT
<<the backlash rate for 300 sorcery isn't any different than 1500 sorcery>>
Out of curiousity, how do you know this? In prime, I don't think anyone has cracked 700.
Out of curiousity, how do you know this? In prime, I don't think anyone has cracked 700.
DYERA7
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/26/2013 06:41 PM CDT
>but as is, most spells blow off limbs between 20~30%
Which most spells are you using, and with how much mana and skill? Some sort of advenced spell or something?
I've got shadows at 5 over min with close to 100 sorc and I'm only measuring a rate closer to 5-10%.
Which most spells are you using, and with how much mana and skill? Some sort of advenced spell or something?
I've got shadows at 5 over min with close to 100 sorc and I'm only measuring a rate closer to 5-10%.
STILVA
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/27/2013 10:22 AM CDT
>Out of curiousity, how do you know this? In prime, I don't think anyone has cracked 700.
Test Server still lets you control Sorcery ranks. (It should be the same as having ranks in Prime, unless it's outdated?)
>Which most spells are you using, and with how much mana and skill? Some sort of advenced spell or something?
Shadows and Clear Vision only [but still do] cause a backlash for me around 5% or so. Burn, Cage of Light, Compost, Nissa's Binding, Y'trel Sechra and Zephyr all hovered around the 15~20% range for me. Locate (pre-Signature...) and Rising Mists were around 40%. Aesandry Darlaeth I couldn't ever get to work at all at min prep in several dozens of attempts. I saw no notable decrease in backlash rates for any of these spells when I tested them, whether it be min prep or borderline a backfire.
Again, I know the more complicated spells should be less safe to cast, but if there's no way to at least whittle away at that already fairly huge risk, then the "real" sorceries would brink on the impossible for anyone to cast, regardless of skill. It turns sorcery into a big thing that no one would be able to excel at, and I'd rather not see 'real' sorcerers turn out to be some GM-only thing.
Test Server still lets you control Sorcery ranks. (It should be the same as having ranks in Prime, unless it's outdated?)
>Which most spells are you using, and with how much mana and skill? Some sort of advenced spell or something?
Shadows and Clear Vision only [but still do] cause a backlash for me around 5% or so. Burn, Cage of Light, Compost, Nissa's Binding, Y'trel Sechra and Zephyr all hovered around the 15~20% range for me. Locate (pre-Signature...) and Rising Mists were around 40%. Aesandry Darlaeth I couldn't ever get to work at all at min prep in several dozens of attempts. I saw no notable decrease in backlash rates for any of these spells when I tested them, whether it be min prep or borderline a backfire.
Again, I know the more complicated spells should be less safe to cast, but if there's no way to at least whittle away at that already fairly huge risk, then the "real" sorceries would brink on the impossible for anyone to cast, regardless of skill. It turns sorcery into a big thing that no one would be able to excel at, and I'd rather not see 'real' sorcerers turn out to be some GM-only thing.
ROBERTDH
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/27/2013 01:49 PM CDT
>Again, I know the more complicated spells should be less safe to cast, but if there's no way to at least whittle away at that already fairly huge risk, then the "real" sorceries would brink on the impossible for anyone to cast, regardless of skill. It turns sorcery into a big thing that no one would be able to excel at, and I'd rather not see 'real' sorcerers turn out to be some GM-only thing.
Are sorcery foci still planned? They might be the intended missing part of the equation. Guild sorceries for war mages and clerics still aren't in the picture yet, either.
Are sorcery foci still planned? They might be the intended missing part of the equation. Guild sorceries for war mages and clerics still aren't in the picture yet, either.
GAMMERGIRL151
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/27/2013 05:25 PM CDT
>> the backlash rate for 300 sorcery isn't any different than 1500 sorcery
>> I saw no notable decrease in backlash rates for any of these spells when I tested them, whether it be min prep or borderline a backfire.
Maybe it's not just sorcery, but your other magic skills or stats which are the issue? Individual spells also differ in backlash rate, even among the same mana type and difficulty.
I went to TEST, set my sorcery to 1500 and cast MAPP 94 times at 60 mana. Holy & Lunar are supposed to be difficult for life users (or at least more difficult than elemental), and MAPP is an advanced spell. I was originally casting it at the cap but that was making my testing take too long. I finally backlashed on cast 94. I cast the spell successfully 6 more times, giving that a backlash rate of 1%.
In prime, I have about 300 sorcery, and I normally cast MAPP at 25 mana. If I do more than 25 mana, I occasionally backfire, which would have made my testing take longer. I stopped to heal and rest between backlashes. Both tests were done with no other spells or buffs up.
I backlashed 3 times in 30 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 10%.
I backlashed 4 times in 50 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I backlashed 6 times in 75 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I backlashed 8 times in 100 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I would say that there is definitely a noticeable difference in the rate of backlash between 300 and 1500 sorcery. Both in the rate of backlash, and also in the amount of mana you can put into the spell without backfiring.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
>> I saw no notable decrease in backlash rates for any of these spells when I tested them, whether it be min prep or borderline a backfire.
Maybe it's not just sorcery, but your other magic skills or stats which are the issue? Individual spells also differ in backlash rate, even among the same mana type and difficulty.
I went to TEST, set my sorcery to 1500 and cast MAPP 94 times at 60 mana. Holy & Lunar are supposed to be difficult for life users (or at least more difficult than elemental), and MAPP is an advanced spell. I was originally casting it at the cap but that was making my testing take too long. I finally backlashed on cast 94. I cast the spell successfully 6 more times, giving that a backlash rate of 1%.
In prime, I have about 300 sorcery, and I normally cast MAPP at 25 mana. If I do more than 25 mana, I occasionally backfire, which would have made my testing take longer. I stopped to heal and rest between backlashes. Both tests were done with no other spells or buffs up.
I backlashed 3 times in 30 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 10%.
I backlashed 4 times in 50 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I backlashed 6 times in 75 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I backlashed 8 times in 100 casts, giving me a backlash rate of 8%.
I would say that there is definitely a noticeable difference in the rate of backlash between 300 and 1500 sorcery. Both in the rate of backlash, and also in the amount of mana you can put into the spell without backfiring.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/28/2013 05:21 PM CDT
Do you have the sorcerous patterns feat? Total anecdata, because it's not like I had under 100 sorcery for that long, but I feel like that changed things notably for me when it came to backlash.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
GAMMERGIRL151
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/28/2013 06:46 PM CDT
>>Do you have the sorcerous patterns feat? Total anecdata, because it's not like I had under 100 sorcery for that long, but I feel like that changed things notably for me when it came to backlash.
Not sure if you're asking me or the OP, but I do.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
Not sure if you're asking me or the OP, but I do.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
STILVA
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/29/2013 02:16 AM CDT
I got the feat the moment I was able to get it, and my other magics are all breaking 700-800s.
>Individual spells also differ in backlash rate, even among the same mana type and difficulty.
>I went to TEST, set my sorcery to 1500 and cast MAPP 94 times at 60 mana. Holy & Lunar are supposed to be difficult for life users (or at least more difficult than elemental), and MAPP is an advanced spell. I was originally casting it at the cap but that was making my testing take too long. I finally backlashed on cast 94. I cast the spell successfully 6 more times, giving that a backlash rate of 1%.
I already know that every spell has it's own unique backlash rate, but that doesn't at all help the problem at hand. The problem is certain spells have an outlandish fail rate and there currently is no workaround for it, making the current concept of sorcery laughable at best.
And if you're curious...
Holy Magic: 794 82% dabbling (1/34) Attunement: 818 25% dabbling (1/34)
Arcana: 689 92% clear (0/34) Targeted Magic: 666 50% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 687 70% clear (0/34) Debilitation: 617 51% clear (0/34)
Utility: 640 70% dabbling (1/34) Warding: 623 87% clear (0/34)
Sorcery: 1500 00% clear (0/34) Theurgy: 582 49% clear (0/34)
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a primed spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
[...] assumes a tense stance, concentrating on something.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Aesandry Darlaeth spell.
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a nascent spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>
[...] assumes a tense stance, concentrating on something.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Aesandry Darlaeth spell.
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a nascent spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>heal
>
Your body feels battered.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have an ugly stump for a right arm, an ugly stump for a left arm, an ugly stump for a right hand, an ugly stump for a left hand.
Bleeding
Area Rate
right arm massive stream
left arm massive stream
right hand very profuse
left hand very profuse
Your body is covered in open oozing sores.
>healme
You are healthy now! Get back to work!
You feel the weakness imparted by your recent death slowly fade away.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>cast
You gesture.
A wispy, grey mist silently rises, droplet by droplet.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>se
You shamble southeast.
[Riverhaven Exterior, Southwest Gate]
...
Obvious paths: west, northwest.
>
You feel fully rested.
>cast
You gesture.
The spell pattern resists the influx of Holy mana, and a strange burning sensation backwashes from the spell pattern into your body.
An instant rush of black and blue fire explodes into being, consuming your outstretched limbs and turning them into ash!
>prep rm
>
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>cast
You gesture.
A wispy, grey mist silently rises, droplet by droplet.
>
You feel fully rested.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>
The faint mist thickens into a dense, unnatural fog.
>w
You shamble west.
[Riverhaven, Outside the Southwest Gate]
...
Obvious paths: east.
>cast
You gesture.
The spell pattern resists the influx of Holy mana, and a strange burning sensation backwashes from the spell pattern into your body.
An instant rush of black and blue fire explodes into being, consuming your outstretched limbs and turning them into ash!
Those were at min prep. I don't believe that the mana put into the spell effects the backlash rate, but if it does, doesn't it just prove my point even further?
(I know Sorc Skill effects backfire rates but I wasn't ever arguing that.)
And respectively, sorcery's "punishment" is far less severe to (higher circle) Empaths since they have a means to deal with it on the spot. Anyone else who backlashes a sorcery just one time has to literally drop what they're doing to go get patched up, making a very wide range of the spells borderline pointless - especially if the nearest empath is really far from where you hunt.
>Individual spells also differ in backlash rate, even among the same mana type and difficulty.
>I went to TEST, set my sorcery to 1500 and cast MAPP 94 times at 60 mana. Holy & Lunar are supposed to be difficult for life users (or at least more difficult than elemental), and MAPP is an advanced spell. I was originally casting it at the cap but that was making my testing take too long. I finally backlashed on cast 94. I cast the spell successfully 6 more times, giving that a backlash rate of 1%.
I already know that every spell has it's own unique backlash rate, but that doesn't at all help the problem at hand. The problem is certain spells have an outlandish fail rate and there currently is no workaround for it, making the current concept of sorcery laughable at best.
And if you're curious...
Holy Magic: 794 82% dabbling (1/34) Attunement: 818 25% dabbling (1/34)
Arcana: 689 92% clear (0/34) Targeted Magic: 666 50% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 687 70% clear (0/34) Debilitation: 617 51% clear (0/34)
Utility: 640 70% dabbling (1/34) Warding: 623 87% clear (0/34)
Sorcery: 1500 00% clear (0/34) Theurgy: 582 49% clear (0/34)
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a primed spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>
You feel fully attuned to the mana streams again.
>
[...] assumes a tense stance, concentrating on something.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Aesandry Darlaeth spell.
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a nascent spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>
[...] assumes a tense stance, concentrating on something.
You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Aesandry Darlaeth spell.
>steal [...]
You turn your gaze on [...], letting a jolt of Idon's Theft engulf your sight.
Limned in cobalt lightning flash, the simulacrum of a nascent spell pattern is disclosed to your senses. You cloud [...]'s mind with psychic cacophony while you reconfigure the intersections of mana lines, successfully usurping the Aesandry Darlaeth spell!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cas
You gesture.
You sense the spell pattern spontaneously extrude a series of uncontrollable ganglia with the influx of Holy mana.
A sudden and violent explosion of pale, sickly green light ruptures from within your fingertips, cascading up in a dramatic, shuddering display that finally collapses upon you like a tidal wave!
>heal
>
Your body feels battered.
Your spirit feels full of life.
You have an ugly stump for a right arm, an ugly stump for a left arm, an ugly stump for a right hand, an ugly stump for a left hand.
Bleeding
Area Rate
right arm massive stream
left arm massive stream
right hand very profuse
left hand very profuse
Your body is covered in open oozing sores.
>healme
You are healthy now! Get back to work!
You feel the weakness imparted by your recent death slowly fade away.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>cast
You gesture.
A wispy, grey mist silently rises, droplet by droplet.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>se
You shamble southeast.
[Riverhaven Exterior, Southwest Gate]
...
Obvious paths: west, northwest.
>
You feel fully rested.
>cast
You gesture.
The spell pattern resists the influx of Holy mana, and a strange burning sensation backwashes from the spell pattern into your body.
An instant rush of black and blue fire explodes into being, consuming your outstretched limbs and turning them into ash!
>prep rm
>
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>cast
You gesture.
A wispy, grey mist silently rises, droplet by droplet.
>
You feel fully rested.
>prep rm
Since you're not feeding enough power into the spell pattern to make it coherent, you quickly work your way to the minimum required.
You begin chanting a mantra to invoke the Rising Mists spell.
>
The faint mist thickens into a dense, unnatural fog.
>w
You shamble west.
[Riverhaven, Outside the Southwest Gate]
...
Obvious paths: east.
>cast
You gesture.
The spell pattern resists the influx of Holy mana, and a strange burning sensation backwashes from the spell pattern into your body.
An instant rush of black and blue fire explodes into being, consuming your outstretched limbs and turning them into ash!
Those were at min prep. I don't believe that the mana put into the spell effects the backlash rate, but if it does, doesn't it just prove my point even further?
(I know Sorc Skill effects backfire rates but I wasn't ever arguing that.)
And respectively, sorcery's "punishment" is far less severe to (higher circle) Empaths since they have a means to deal with it on the spot. Anyone else who backlashes a sorcery just one time has to literally drop what they're doing to go get patched up, making a very wide range of the spells borderline pointless - especially if the nearest empath is really far from where you hunt.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/29/2013 11:26 AM CDT
>>Aesandry Darlaeth
It might be just the spell you picked this time, but does the super duper level of backlash thing happen with non-esoteric [signature?] spells?
I'm also wondering if backlash relies only on sorcery or if the secondary magic skill is factored in, as well. Maybe your augmentation is causing you trouble, and you need a higher average augmentation/sorcery mix to cast sorcerous esoteric spells.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
It might be just the spell you picked this time, but does the super duper level of backlash thing happen with non-esoteric [signature?] spells?
I'm also wondering if backlash relies only on sorcery or if the secondary magic skill is factored in, as well. Maybe your augmentation is causing you trouble, and you need a higher average augmentation/sorcery mix to cast sorcerous esoteric spells.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
KHIOL
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/29/2013 12:46 PM CDT
>The problem is certain spells have an outlandish fail rate and there currently is no workaround for it
I do notice this on some basic spells, usually the stat ones they will backlash like 1:20 or 1:15 in some cases with 300's in sorcery. A little harsh IMO and something like that is gunna make it not used by anyone once its nailed down. Maybe new magic fixes in the future could get the system nailed down. or a second sorcery feat to accomidate?
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
I do notice this on some basic spells, usually the stat ones they will backlash like 1:20 or 1:15 in some cases with 300's in sorcery. A little harsh IMO and something like that is gunna make it not used by anyone once its nailed down. Maybe new magic fixes in the future could get the system nailed down. or a second sorcery feat to accomidate?
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
MOCKERJB
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/30/2013 08:29 AM CDT
1500 should be enough to cast any non-signature spell at min prep. That's not a ritual spell is it?
Mana input does affect backlash risk in my experience, not as much as spell tier difficulty, but it was a noticeable difference for me going from 35-50% of my discern cap to 65-75% when I doing full prep tests to figure out how to learn it.
Mana input does affect backlash risk in my experience, not as much as spell tier difficulty, but it was a noticeable difference for me going from 35-50% of my discern cap to 65-75% when I doing full prep tests to figure out how to learn it.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Sorcerous Backlash rates
05/30/2013 01:09 PM CDT
>>1500 should be enough to cast any non-signature spell at min prep. That's not a ritual spell is it?
My understanding is that all esoteric spells are signature.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Signature_Spells_-_03/06/2013_-_10:36
That said, if the spell is signature, then it shouldn't backlash, because it shouldn't work at all. Unless somehow reaching the stage of being able to actually cast a signature now results in a backlash.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
My understanding is that all esoteric spells are signature.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Signature_Spells_-_03/06/2013_-_10:36
That said, if the spell is signature, then it shouldn't backlash, because it shouldn't work at all. Unless somehow reaching the stage of being able to actually cast a signature now results in a backlash.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
