With the upcoming F2P, it looks like I may be able to convince some friends to try out DR, and I'm going to start a newbie alt to level with them. To help their class selection, and mine, I'm trying to create a simple list of why to choose a guild. Here's my stab at it. Recommendations? (Keep in mind the audience isn't really thinking about 2 years down the line).



Barbarians
Selling points:
* Best single target offensive class.
* Strong defensive class.
* Answer to every single combat situation.

Reasons to avoid:
* More or less a solo class.
* Not a lot of reason to spend time in social situations.
* Multiple weapons are more or less redundant if you don't buy into the flavor messaging.
* Limited to no exposure to the scroll system.

Bards
Selling points:
* Best all around class (combat + social + group support + ) with a good mix of utilities to fit most situations.
* Strong crafting potential.
* Buffs to all aspects of the game available via abilities or scrolls.
* Relatively easy to level.
* Access to some warrior mage spells without sorcerous backlash.

Reasons to avoid:
* Many buffs and debufs conflict with each other.
* The best debuffs come much later in progression.
* Plays like a caster, but it has fewer spell slots.
* You'll train abilities that you'll never use except for leveling.

Clerics
Selling points:
* Excellent utility class with a unique support function (helping the dead, removing curses)
* Best combat class against undead, and very strong against the living.
* Unique buffs, solo resurrection, unique casting style
* Strong situational support abilities
* Mitigates several defensive penalties with spells
* Can use some paladin magic without risk (not much to choose from though)

Reasons to avoid:
* Devotion isn't a great skill to train early on, especially if you can't travel between provinces.
* Bad choice if you don't like quests or RP
* You'll suffer a penalty to 2-3 of your magic skills in exchange for a buff to two others (you pick).

Empaths (NOT F2P)
Selling points:
* Excellent support class with a unique ability (healing others).
* Can completely avoid combat and still excel in the game, if you're into that sort of thing.
* Can use some ranger magic without risk.

Reasons to avoid:
* Bad if you want to help others.
* Worst offensive capability of any class, and combat is very difficult to level.
* The best experience path still has you in combat.

MoonMages
Selling points:
* Magic is not room dependent (any room is as good as another)
* Strong support class with a unique ability (teleportation)
* Better survivalist abilities of most casters
* Unique ability to boost (enhance) or curse (weaken) certain skills
* Does not require combat to level, but has the option.
* Will eventually be able to use trader magic without risk.

Reasons to avoid:
* Some abilities are restricted by F2P (teleportation to other provinces, shadow servant for carrying goods)
* Magic is not room dependent. On a bad magic day, you're just going to have a bad day.
* Many spells are dependent on the moons or time of day.
* Fewest offensive and defensive boosts of all of the casters.

Necromancers (Not F2P)
This is not a beginner class.

Paladins
Selling points:
* Strongest defensive capability of any class.
* Tied or exceeds the barbarian in progression from one creature to another.
* Unique abilities to to aid others (glyphs - protect weapons and armor of the dead - including yourself with enough skill)
* Can use some cleric spells from scrolls without risk in addition to some defensive magics

Reasons to avoid:
* Some would say this is boring as you are greatly reducing your ability to die.
* If you aren't a law abiding citizen (such as training thievery)
* Spends a majority of time in combat situations.
* Not the strongest magic user.

Rangers
Selling points:
* Strong mixture of offensive and defensive abilities
* Animal companion (raccoon, later wolf) that can fetch and deliver items, or carry small messages.
* Eventually learns the ability to shoot bows from hiding.
* Uses some empath magic (not healing spells)

Reasons to avoid:
* Must spend a large amount of time in the wilds. Not a great social class.
* Many of the spells are designed to help bowmanship. You can choose not to use a bow, but it makes rangering less engaging IMO.
* Your hunting choices are primarily determined the ability to skin your foe.

Thieves
Selling points:
* Unique abilities that center around stealth.
* Can eventually snipe from hiding with a cross bow.
* Unique "magic" system focused primarily on passive self buffs.

Reasons to avoid:
* Not the most intuitive class.
* Your hunting is primarily determined by the availability of boxes to disarm.
* Some of the hardest skills for new players to trains (thievery)
* Not the most intuitive guild to find.

Traders (Not F2P)
Selling points:
* Unique money making system involving caravans, trading contracts, and commodities markets.
* Moderately strong defensive potential.
* Unique support function (selling gem pouches, running shops, eventually entering restricted stores)

Reasons to avoid:
* Not really a social guild as you're most likely either hunting or running the trade routes
* Magic system has not yet been implemented. Few active abilities until then.

Warrior Mages
Selling points:
* Best potential for AOE damage.
* Unique ability in familiars (summoned companions that can scout, talk, or carry things for you)
* Thematic spells that let you focus on an element (earth,fire,water,air) for RP purposes or flavor
* Can use some bard spells without penalty

Reasons to avoid:
* Not a high utility class.
* Limited defensive capabilities
* Not a great stealth, support, or defensive class.
* Lots of redundancy in the spell books (Several ways to kill the cat that matters more at high levels)

I agree with everything but the "solo class" thing for Barbs. IMO, pretty much every class these days is solo unless you want to interact with people. If anything (and I saw you did this, too), I'd focus more on which guilds are better at helping others if you're inclined for that.

(And while not part of the F2P model, I'd label Necros as the epitome of solo class because it pretty much forces/enables it. So maybe that's a pro and con? Hah.)

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

> > IMO, pretty much every class these days is solo unless you want to interact with people.

I called a barb a solo class because they have little reason to interact with others via the skillset. Lores, for example, benefit heavily from classes. Magics (while trained better in combat) don't have to be. A young barbarian is highly encouraged to spend pretty much every waking moment in combat. It fits the class theme.

<<Warrior Mages are not defensively challenged.

Correct, with the one exception being stat contests. They don't have any SvS spell barriers and end up relying on Lay Ward. But considering their whole defence suite, that's pretty much only a PvP issue and is a relatively minor gap. I think there was some preliminary talk about giving them an SvS barrier that was either fortitude or reflex based, but I think it got back-burnered due to attitude or something.

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That's a pretty great list! If I may offer some opinion...

Moon mages DO pretty much need combat skills to level now due to magic requirements, unless you want to be bound to classes for leveling. We can only neglect one magic skill, which is generally going to be either sorcery, debilitation or TM... so at least one of the combat-only magic skills will be required.

Also I think on the selling points, moonies can be a great social class since we can find and talk to almost anyone anywhere eventually with the right spells and skills. (I don't believe locate, thoughtcast, and SHM will be restricted by F2P.)

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I like to imagine that the popping sound of PD is kind of like the fire swamp.

True but that's not a hard restriction like the astral travel quest (using astral guides).

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I like to imagine that the popping sound of PD is kind of like the fire swamp.

>>I think there was some preliminary talk about giving them an SvS barrier that was either fortitude or reflex based, but I think it got back-burnered due to attitude or something.

If/when you guys want to have a civilized thread about SvS barriers, I'll be there.

For future reference, things that quickly cause me to lose interest in threads:
1) Unfunny hyperbole
2) Direct insults
3) Smurfs

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

<<For future reference, things that quickly cause me to lose interest in threads:
<<3. Smurfs

http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/5215.jpg

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>Reason to avoid F2P Thieves: Must buy passports to access abilities that you will need to train your magic skills.

Ya, I just looked it up, the crossing tree has 1 utility trainer in it, and it's Liberate (circle 35 and at the end of the tree).

If we discount ambush choke because it's less than useless as a training tool, that means you have access to guile as early as 20.

Which means on paper you should be able to level up. You don't 'need' a second magic until after 30th.

I mean, it's less than ideal, and I've railed on the structure of the khri spread for a while, as well as debilitation training.

To answer about Ranger selling points:

There really aren't any that stand out.

I can tell you Rangers are also in combat most of the time, like barbs. Several survivals are linked to combat.

They have some decent combat spell buffs and debuffs, but they've been nerfed so much it is hard to actually say magic is a selling point.

ONE selling point for sure is DUAL LOAD that thieves also get too. SNIPING is a selling point. I'd just simplify that as *Unique Bow Abilities*

The Ranger bonus to survival(being in the wild) fluctuates so fast up and down that this is not a selling point. And most of the true nature rooms are in combat zones.

Companions are definitely NOT a selling point. The Scouting system is definitely NOT a selling point.

I'd argue the only selling point for a Ranger is unique bow abilities, but those abilities do not even become an option until later in the game anyway.

I thought it went further and works with any loaded missile weapon, including the various slings?

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Under Cleric you say:

>>You'll suffer a penalty to 2-3 of your magic skills in exchange for a buff to two others (you pick).

Can you expand on this? It's not something I'm aware of.

Clerics:

Theurgy is a pain in the butt to train.

Thieves:

I'm pretty sure thieves can snipe with bows or crossbows, I'm not sure about slings.

I think it should be clarified that Empaths are fully capable of advancing without relying on healing others. Offensively they are certainly no Warrior Mages, but two manipulated critters and a GS with an Empath supporting is more than capable of killing at a reasonable clip. That, of course, requires some circling to attain, but all these perks do.

In terms of 'skills that are a pain to train', I truthfully think none of them are really that bad. Theurgy is a pain early on, but once you get Merauds Commune at 30th (I think?) everything is a breeze. Certainly this is information worth passing onto a new player, but it's not like it's going to be a perpetual painful grind. I also think Astrology is super tricky to move before 10th when you get event prediction, though even that's a fairly considerate time sink to keep it moving.

Honestly, I think the thematic feel of a guild is the biggest selling point. Barbarians and Paladins each have a high combat and high gear emphasis, but both thematically feel quite different. Clerics and Warmies have the same skill sets, and fairly similar in scope magical suites (one emphasizes defensive buffing, the other emphasizes offensive magics, but both have potent defensive buffs and potent offensive magics), but thematically feel quite different.

I think the OPs list is pretty on point, but I would emphasize in conversation with newbie Commoners who really have never played the game to 'go with their guts' on what sort of vibe they're after. Like the idea of an esoteric mage that explores and bends strange forces to their will, and aren't super interested in living in combat? Moonies might be for you! Want to beat stuff up with weapons and roar in fury? Barbarians! Huge armor clad tanky dude? Paladin!

Obviously there are balance issues or such that we as older players are going to have in mind when recommending things, but that's after more than a decade of game experience and reflection.

> In terms of 'skills that are a pain to train', I truthfully think none of them are really that bad.

Here are my thoughts. Tell me where I'm wrong.

* Theurgy is going to be extremely difficult to someone who doesn't have coin for holy items, and doesn't have a password to get all of the altars.

* Thievery is very punishing when you fail.

* Locksmithing is always hard if you aren't killing box dropping creatures fast enough.

* Weapon skills are painful initially due to the fatigue and RT. This is especially true for low level characters and very heavy or unwieldily weapons.

* Astrology is tough because you can accidentally debuff yourself in a skill you only have a few ranks in.

These probably don't count since they're not FTP

* Empathy is difficult early on as you must find someone to heal. Classes are an option, but they teach poorly.

* Necro magic before you have the money and ability to pick up non-necro spells.

> I would emphasize in conversation with newbie Commoners who really have never played the game to 'go with their guts' on what sort of vibe they're after

This may be the best idea yet. In the end, most guilds are fairly similar and every guild can really do almost anything thanks to DR's design (My first character was a heavy plate wearing warrior mage who trained a dozen weapons). That's what makes DR great.

>Theurgy is going to be extremely difficult to someone who doesn't have coin for holy items

Eh, dance, pray, kiss, and clean (water being available with Eluneds at... 5th?) are all fine. You're also not really tanking your devotion much as a Cleric early on, and I believe COMMUNE SENSE teaches up to ~30 ranks or so.

>Empathy is difficult early on as you must find someone to heal. Classes are an option, but they teach poorly.

Powerwalking is a thing, and you can manipulate around 50 ranks of Empathy.

>Necro magic before you have the money and ability to pick up non-necro spells.

Necromancers should pick up MaF. Other than Warding, they can train all spells. They just have to be, not surprisingly sneaky about it. This is a fine thing. Warding is the only skill that is impossible for a Necromancer to easily train, though with MaF or GAF you're fine.

Everything else you linked isn't actually a guild skill. Yes, some guilds will have a harder time training them, and some can be tricky if you don't know what you're doing, but by in large nothings too unforgiving.

>This may be the best idea yet. In the end, most guilds are fairly similar and every guild can really do almost anything thanks to DR's design (My first character was a heavy plate wearing warrior mage who trained a dozen weapons). That's what makes DR great.

Agreed, though I think it should be emphasized that some guilds can do some things better than others. Plate wearing Warmies may have a harder time of things initially than cloth wearing Warmies. I don't think the point should be to discourage players from working towards whatever goals they may have, just providing information for how to reach those goals effectively, and what may prove difficult about it. For example, a new player that decides they want to RP a stealthy evil Paladin that grinds the bones of orphans and robs banks to give to the poor might have a hard time with things.

>>Astrology buffs/debuffs are percentages instead of absolute ranks (this is why nooblers always predict "cold"), and have been for many many years now. >>You can't zap yourself with obscene knowledge or crippling penalties anymore.

I have fond memories of doing this in systems that were never really designed with negative ranks in mind...

Giving myself 28 RT percing planets.
Being unable to sense anything at all about mana.
Failing to climb stairs.

Good times. Good times. I should bring that stuff back...

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>>> MoonMages
>>> * Does not require combat to level, but has the option.

While technically true, in practice Moon Mages have defacto combat requirements. It would be hard (but not impossible via classes) to level without ever entering combat. MM's need five survival skills to level. They could choose athletics, perception, outdoorsmanship, locksmithing and first aid but training the last two without entering combat would introduce a slight challenge. Moon Mages need to train all magics except one. This ultimately means that they can only forgo one of debilitation, targeted magic and sorcery (or train all three and skip another). This pretty much means classes or entering combat (and possibly risking sorcerous backlashes eventually).

>>Failing to climb stairs.

Fear not! With enough athleticism, you climb those scripted steps so fast you become too fatigued climb the next set of them.

Damn you, Aesry!

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Thieves
Selling points:
* Can eventually snipe from hiding with a cross bow.

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As already stated you can snipe with any aimable weapon in any environment.


Reasons to avoid:
* Your hunting is primarily determined by the availability of boxes to disarm.

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I didn't see this addressed yet, but Thieves no longer are required to train locksmithing. So this is not a reason to avoid them.